chinacat
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AAPL Long since 2006
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Post by chinacat on Feb 20, 2016 9:33:21 GMT -8
Now that the Friday discussion of iPhone security has inevitably devolved into politics and name calling, I am opening up the weekend thread to get a fresh start. Hard to believe that AAPL hit a then-all-time high of $133.60 just over a year ago, later surpassed by $0.94 in April. Sure don't see how Apple's financial performance since then justifies AAPL being any lower today, but that's Mr. Market for you.
The Red Sox and all other MLB teams are in Florida and Arizona, so hope springs eternal, and I am maintaining that outlook for our favorite fruit company.
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bud777
fire starter
Posts: 1,352
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Post by bud777 on Feb 20, 2016 9:48:10 GMT -8
This iPhone security has challenged some of my basic assumptions. I thought that NSA could read anything, anywhere at anytime. (Hi guys, you are doing a great job) If the FBI says that they cannot get into the iPhone, either they really cannot, which is unimaginable, or NSA doesn't cooperate with the FBI even on terrorism (which is slightly more probable) or the entire issue is designed to make us believe that they cannot when they actually can so that terrorists will use it more. I am going with door number 3. And thank you again to all the fine government servants who keep us and their pensions safe.
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Post by rickag on Feb 20, 2016 13:34:45 GMT -8
This iPhone security has challenged some of my basic assumptions. I thought that NSA could read anything, anywhere at anytime. (Hi guys, you are doing a great job) If the FBI says that they cannot get into the iPhone, either they really cannot, which is unimaginable, or NSA doesn't cooperate with the FBI even on terrorism (which is slightly more probable) or the entire issue is designed to make us believe that they cannot when they actually can so that terrorists will use it more. I am going with door number 3. And thank you again to all the fine government servants who keep us and their pensions safe. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
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Post by phoebear611 on Feb 20, 2016 13:47:43 GMT -8
This iPhone security has challenged some of my basic assumptions. I thought that NSA could read anything, anywhere at anytime. (Hi guys, you are doing a great job) If the FBI says that they cannot get into the iPhone, either they really cannot, which is unimaginable, or NSA doesn't cooperate with the FBI even on terrorism (which is slightly more probable) or the entire issue is designed to make us believe that they cannot when they actually can so that terrorists will use it more. I am going with door number 3. And thank you again to all the fine government servants who keep us and their pensions safe. I respectfully disagree but truly hope I'm wrong though. I think 9/11 changed my views on this entirely. When the terrorists were headed to the Pentagon that morning and then crashed into it I was stunned. I thought that the Pentagon had some type of military shield - soldiers with bazookas on the roof or snipers or some type of fancy security that would render it impenetrable. I was shocked to see just how vulnerable we were. I think our government - in particular when it comes to technology - is 20 years behind. Anyone listen to McAfee on Friday on CNBC? He is a nut case, yes I know, but he made a point that my husband and I have discussed a million times. The government refuses to hire the guy with the purple mohawk or the one filled with body tattoos or smoking weed while he works but many of those very guys are the brilliant ones who are technologically gifted. And I say this by the way, as a daughter of a man who worked at the FBI. It's been decades so I certainly can't vouch for how far their technology has come but I have to tell you that the brightest minds (and I'm not telling you anything you don't already know) do not flock to the government for a job/career. Our current POTUS run is a perfect case in point. Out of roughly 350 million people in this country was this seriously the very best (on both sides of the aisle) that we could actually come up with to run? The insanity continues.
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Post by firestorm on Feb 20, 2016 14:14:46 GMT -8
This iPhone security has challenged some of my basic assumptions. I thought that NSA could read anything, anywhere at anytime. (Hi guys, you are doing a great job) If the FBI says that they cannot get into the iPhone, either they really cannot, which is unimaginable, or NSA doesn't cooperate with the FBI even on terrorism (which is slightly more probable) or the entire issue is designed to make us believe that they cannot when they actually can so that terrorists will use it more. I am going with door number 3. And thank you again to all the fine government servants who keep us and their pensions safe. I respectfully disagree but truly hope I'm wrong though. I think 9/11 changed my views on this entirely. When the terrorists were headed to the Pentagon that morning and then crashed into it I was stunned. I thought that the Pentagon had some type of military shield - soldiers with bazookas on the roof or snipers or some type of fancy security that would render it impenetrable. I was shocked to see just how vulnerable we were. I think our government - in particular when it comes to technology - is 20 years behind. Anyone listen to McAfee on Friday on CNBC? He is a nut case, yes I know, but he made a point that my husband and I have discussed a million times. The government refuses to hire the guy with the purple mohawk or the one filled with body tattoos or smoking weed while he works but many of those very guys are the brilliant ones who are technologically gifted. And I say this by the way, as a daughter of a man who worked at the FBI. It's been decades so I certainly can't vouch for how far their technology has come but I have to tell you that the brightest minds (and I'm not telling you anything you don't already know) do not flock to the government for a job/career. Our current POTUS run is a perfect case in point. Out of roughly 350 million people in this country was this seriously the very best (on both sides of the aisle) that we could actually come up with to run? The insanity continues. I agree with you about the (lack of) quality of presidential candidates on both sides. The smoke-filled rooms of old produced better candidates, but then we largely outlawed indoor smoking. So I blame the change in smoking habits for America's dilemma!
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chinacat
Moderator
AAPL Long since 2006
Posts: 4,426
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Post by chinacat on Feb 20, 2016 14:49:17 GMT -8
Anybody want to discuss Apple/AAPL, aside from the recent security kerfuffle?
Any thoughts on the March event, or is the assumption that no matter what is announced it will never overcome the the FUDsters?
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bud777
fire starter
Posts: 1,352
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Post by bud777 on Feb 20, 2016 14:52:24 GMT -8
I don't think that the problems with our government are with the quality of people or in our inability to attract talent. And I don't think that it is a problem with leadership at the top. Whether we have a brilliant leader or an total incompetent, the dominant factor that I see is that the government has grown to such a level of complexity that it is almost impossible for it to act in a coordinated manner. Remember how agents had warned about 9/11 months before but it was not acted upon? When there is an incident of any kind, whether it is a mass shooting or a kidnapping of American citizens in a foreign country, I believe that there are hundreds of government agencies who immediately think, "How can I use this to advance my career?" So they mobilize a team and try to get a piece of the action. Those few times that I have had direct inside knowledge of an international incident, the people handling it told me that 90% of their efforts are spent trying to control our response by stopping uncoordinated efforts. They are on the scene and a team of seals or some other group shows up to solve the problem and they have to talk them back down. It is evidence of an organization that is so big that no one is in charge. It is like a millipede trying to ice skate. The discouraging part of this is that the problem cannot be solved. Government is an autopoietic system. It creates the environment necessary for it to survive. It will continue to grow until it runs out of food. Unfortunately, we are the food
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Post by rickag on Feb 20, 2016 15:35:42 GMT -8
Was it Socrates or Plato that the death of Democracy will be bureaucracy.
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coma
Member
Posts: 522
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Post by coma on Feb 20, 2016 15:37:59 GMT -8
Does it really matter ?
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Post by firestorm on Feb 20, 2016 17:15:06 GMT -8
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Post by phoebear611 on Feb 20, 2016 17:21:34 GMT -8
Anybody want to discuss Apple/AAPL, aside from the recent security kerfuffle? Any thoughts on the March event, or is the assumption that no matter what is announced it will never overcome the the FUDsters? There doesn't seem to be anything ground-breaking in any of the products they are debuting unless I missed the memo. Would be nice to have a surprise - even a small one.
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Post by phoebear611 on Feb 20, 2016 18:38:06 GMT -8
I continue to be torn - I want my privacy and yet I want the FBI (or whoever) to fight or thwart off the "bad guys". As a private citizen I don't want the FBI to have this technology. HOWEVER, if I worked for the FBI I would be the first one trying to get my hands on encryption breaking technology so I could do my job better and "catch the bad guys'. Damn, where are all the superheroes when you really need them!?
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Post by chasmac on Feb 20, 2016 19:15:46 GMT -8
I continue to be torn - I want my privacy and yet I want the FBI (or whoever) to fight or thwart off the "bad guys". As a private citizen I don't want the FBI to have this technology. HOWEVER, if I worked for the FBI I would be the first one trying to get my hands on encryption breaking technology so I could do my job better and "catch the bad guys'. Damn, where are all the superheroes when you really need them!? Who are the bad guys? American's efforts to stop someone because they're scary Muslims vs. the lack of concern for the other bad guys that kill 32,000 Americans per year.is stunning. Not trying to be political, just find it rather hypocritical.
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Post by firestorm on Feb 21, 2016 4:17:03 GMT -8
I continue to be torn - I want my privacy and yet I want the FBI (or whoever) to fight or thwart off the "bad guys". As a private citizen I don't want the FBI to have this technology. HOWEVER, if I worked for the FBI I would be the first one trying to get my hands on encryption breaking technology so I could do my job better and "catch the bad guys'. Damn, where are all the superheroes when you really need them!? Here is a good article about the case: www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/02/how_apple_ceo_tim_cook_s_stand_against_the_fbi_could_backfire.htmlI too have mixed emotions about this case. When Apple originally announced that they were creating iPhones that could be made completely private by the owner, I waggishly said in this forum that they were hoping to attract terrorists as a market. Apparently they did. I am also concerned, as an investor, that the Apple stand–in theory a good stand on the right to privacy–could hurt the company if the public comes to see Apple on the wrong side of history. I suspect that this case was a bad one for Tim Cook to draw a line in the sand. They should have just quietly helped the FBI.
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Post by phoebear611 on Feb 21, 2016 4:52:44 GMT -8
Who was the one who made it public? Was it TC or the FBI? This Company always gets so much FUD - I hope this isn't something that will continue to allow it to underperform. It puts them in such a bad spot. Remember when Mister Softie had a run in with the government - it was years before the government didn't stop harassing them. No Company needs this crap - and it was just their luck that the terrorist had the iPhone and it put them in the spotlight. Others might argue that it wasn't dumb luck and there was a reason they (the terrorists) used the iPhone. Ah...there is always a debate. There is a world renowned political philosopher and professor at Harvard - which some members may be very familiar with - his name is Michael Sandel. My son took his course and left his book here one semester so I picked it up and started to read it - then I saw that he had free on line episodes of class. It deals with these types of subject matters and I have no doubt that the current students are probably debating this very topic today. The name of his course is "Justice" (he's also written several books) - if you Google "Michael Sandel Justice" you'll see a bunch of stuff. It's very interesting to see some of the moral/political/philosophical topics they debate. But please do not do what my son did - he brought up one of the topics and debates at Christmas Day dinner one year and all hell broke loose at the table...I wanted to choke him!
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Post by chasmac on Feb 21, 2016 6:17:23 GMT -8
Personally, I think the FBI did it on purpose. They knew this would be the perfect case to try in the court of public opinion. As Snowden showed us, they can never be trusted. And for anyone saying, it only happens in special circumstances, the courts grant 100% of the requests from law enforcement for warrants in these types of cases.
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bud777
fire starter
Posts: 1,352
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Post by bud777 on Feb 21, 2016 6:38:53 GMT -8
I want Apple to start running the 1984 ads again, just change the last frame where it says Apple will announce the MacIntosh to a statement about protecting our privacy. Would that be too much? Good.
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Post by rickag on Feb 21, 2016 7:34:54 GMT -8
I continue to be torn - I want my privacy and yet I want the FBI (or whoever) to fight or thwart off the "bad guys". As a private citizen I don't want the FBI to have this technology. HOWEVER, if I worked for the FBI I would be the first one trying to get my hands on encryption breaking technology so I could do my job better and "catch the bad guys'. Damn, where are all the superheroes when you really need them!? Here is a good article about the case: www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/02/how_apple_ceo_tim_cook_s_stand_against_the_fbi_could_backfire.htmlI too have mixed emotions about this case. When Apple originally announced that they were creating iPhones that could be made completely private by the owner, I waggishly said in this forum that they were hoping to attract terrorists as a market. Apparently they did. I am also concerned, as an investor, that the Apple stand–in theory a good stand on the right to privacy–could hurt the company if the public comes to see Apple on the wrong side of history. I suspect that this case was a bad one for Tim Cook to draw a line in the sand. They should have just quietly helped the FBI. The article repeatedly stated the Apple has already unlocked 70 phones which apparently they did not.
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Since84
Moderator
To infinity and beyond!
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Post by Since84 on Feb 21, 2016 7:45:53 GMT -8
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Post by Red Shirted Ensign on Feb 21, 2016 7:48:16 GMT -8
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Since84
Moderator
To infinity and beyond!
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Post by Since84 on Feb 21, 2016 7:48:11 GMT -8
I'm surprised that the FBI/NSA does not add the 256-bit AES elliptic curve asymmetric cryptography to the export control list. This would be a good way to hurt Apple for not cooperating. Next on the list would be the A9 chip. As if there is not enough incentive already for companies to leave the country. This could incite an exodus of Tech from the US.
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Ted
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Post by Ted on Feb 21, 2016 8:22:46 GMT -8
This privacy issue is so important and divisive that I care more about Apple standing up for everyone's rights than the stock's performance this year. I'm proud of Tim & co. for having bigger cojones than the rest of corporate America and a better understanding of what's truly imeaningful in our society today. Being on the opposite side of Trump on this also shows how right Apple is - cause pretty much everything that comes out of his mouth is inflammatory bullshit calculated to help him enlist America's dumbest to his cause. Pardon the politics, but he's more a circus act than a politician. . . From what I've read, Firestorm, Apple was quietly working with the FBI to resolve this since January, but lack of progress and the govt's political agenda prompted the FBI to go public and vilify Apple as uncooperative and impeding justice. We can't seem to catch a break as AAPL investors, but I'm still pleased with the company's performance.
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Post by dmiller on Feb 21, 2016 8:44:22 GMT -8
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Post by mrentropy on Feb 21, 2016 8:51:10 GMT -8
Anybody want to discuss Apple/AAPL, aside from the recent security kerfuffle? Any thoughts on the March event, or is the assumption that no matter what is announced it will never overcome the the FUDsters? Personal WAG, products are viewed as underwhelming and not innovative enough to spark growth. No matter what is announced. Stock drops.
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Post by dmiller on Feb 21, 2016 8:54:58 GMT -8
Even better (I'm reading backwards through his posts now). Everyone here should read this completely and very carefully. ..."Not only is Apple being ordered to compromise their own devices; they’re being ordered to give that golden key to the government, in a very roundabout sneaky way. What FBI has requested will inevitably force Apple’s methods out into the open, where they can be ingested by government agencies looking to do the same thing. They will also be exposed to private forensics companies, who are notorious for reverse engineering and stealing other people’s intellectual property. Should Apple comply in providing a tool, it will inevitably end up abused and in the wrong hands." Apple, FBI, and the Burden of Forensic Methodology
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Post by Luckychoices on Feb 21, 2016 9:00:04 GMT -8
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platon
Member
"All we can know is that we know nothing. And that's the height of human wisdom.? Tolstoy
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Post by platon on Feb 21, 2016 9:35:03 GMT -8
This incident shows why you cannot separate investing from politics. Continuous encroachment by an overreaching Federal government will eventually play into any investment decision you make. Big government can create as well as destroy any business and as an investor you better be aware of the government's role in deciding the success or failure of whatever company you invest in. In the interest of preserving the peace I do agree that both sides of the isle are guilty of abuse and both should be called out when they exceed the limits of their Constitutional authority, We are not a democracy and what the federal government is doing to Apple is beyond the limits that is allowed by the COTUS and it does not matter if the public is 100% behind the government. At present I believe that 70% of the populace supports Apple and quite frankly that surprises me.
“The wisest thing in the world is to cry out before you are hurt. It is no good to cry out after you are hurt; especially after you are mortally hurt. People talk about the impatience of the populace; but sound historians know that most tyrannies have been possible because men moved too late. it is often essential to resist a tyranny before it exists.” ― G.K. Chesterton, Eugenics and Other Evils: An Argument Against the Scientifically Organized State
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chinacat
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AAPL Long since 2006
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Post by chinacat on Feb 21, 2016 9:46:34 GMT -8
One of the comments that resonated with me: we are seeing ZERO focus and press releases going after the laws that allowed that woman to come into our country with her radical past...or, where is the outrage by the FBI and Donald Trump over how insanely easy it was for Mr and Mrs Terrorist to actually get those assault weapons
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Since84
Moderator
To infinity and beyond!
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Post by Since84 on Feb 21, 2016 10:32:38 GMT -8
As context, it may be worth considering the case of Joseph P. Nacchio, former Chairman of Quest, convicted of Insider Trading and Fraud -- after refusing to participate in an NSA surveillance program. Don't underestimate the risk Tim and Apple are taking.
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Post by gtrplyr on Feb 21, 2016 10:37:45 GMT -8
At this point unfortunately, AAPL and Politics are completely intertwined. Not a very good position for any company to be in let alone one that I'm so heavily invested in : )
From what I've read Apple didn't ask for this fight ... it was not made public by Tim but unfortunately he was put in a position to respond .... so far I feel Apple is fairing pretty well in the court of public opinion ... not with Trump but regardless of what you think about him his comments regarding a public company are so far out of line they don't even require a response.
We live in interesting times .......
Cheers to the longs
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