Since84
Moderator
To infinity and beyond!
Posts: 3,933
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Post by Since84 on May 16, 2019 2:28:47 GMT -8
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Post by firestorm on May 16, 2019 6:36:11 GMT -8
It strikes me that AAPL is more vulnerable than most stocks to the China Syndrome, both for the potential of supply chain disruption and for the possibility of a targeted response by the Chinese against Apple. For once in my life, I got lucky with a trade and sold near its post-earnings high (though I didn't have that many shares), and am now out of AAPL until the political tit-for-tat quiets down, which it may or may not do. Take my reasoning with a grain of salt. Of late I have been doing better with AMZN.
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Post by sponge on May 16, 2019 6:55:28 GMT -8
We recovered quickly from the lows on Monday with 190 as the target tomorrow. Signs now point to a gradual move back into 205 area by WWDC.
Then the roller coaster heads down as get into the next round of tariffs and taking us with it. Those 20 to 30 point swings I anticipated in Dec are starting to take shape.
I misjudged Trump on the whole trade deal. It now appears he will not only hold firm but racket up the pressure with more tariffs. We will be caught in the crossfire.
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Post by rickag on May 16, 2019 7:09:34 GMT -8
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walterwhite
Member
"I am the one who knocks!"... Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 346
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Post by walterwhite on May 16, 2019 7:17:59 GMT -8
It strikes me that AAPL is more vulnerable than most stocks to the China Syndrome, both for the potential of supply chain disruption and for the possibility of a targeted response by the Chinese against Apple. For once in my life, I got lucky with a trade and sold near its post-earnings high (though I didn't have that many shares), and am now out of AAPL until the political tit-for-tat quiets down, which it may or may not do. Take my reasoning with a grain of salt. Of late I have been doing better with AMZN. well done, congrats! (even if pure luck) - i'm a trapped long... didn't sell anything before or after earnings. have long-term holding that I'm not worried about, but also some trading positions from december (options) that are suffering (though still green)
you're right that aapl is unfortunately... *demonstrably* more vulnerable. it fell faster and harder than anything else last week... and now look, markets up over 1%, msft and amzn (already both higher market cap than aapl) are pulling away with 2%+ gain, and aapl is flat after being down 1% in the morning... it sucks, really
I can't follow you into amzn though... great co but i just can't own that valuation even though it's done 6x in past 5 years (vs 2x aapl)
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walterwhite
Member
"I am the one who knocks!"... Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 346
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Post by walterwhite on May 16, 2019 7:20:30 GMT -8
you're posting an article from october 4th (it's in the link).... curious, where did you see this pop up?
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Post by macster on May 16, 2019 7:43:42 GMT -8
Still boggles my mind that after the corporate tax cuts, small business tax cuts, personal tax cuts, repatriation, massive anti business regulation cuts, good economic growth with low inflation, wage increases, bonuses, rising stock market, excellent manufacturing employment statistics and reduced welfare rolls the nation is upset over tariffs that will hardly make a dent in personal and national economic growth. www.marketwatch.com/story/the-media-is-lying-to-you-about-trumps-china-tariffs-2019-05-14
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walterwhite
Member
"I am the one who knocks!"... Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 346
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Post by walterwhite on May 16, 2019 7:51:55 GMT -8
Still boggles my mind that after the corporate tax cuts, small business tax cuts, personal tax cuts, repatriation, massive anti business regulation cuts, good economic growth with low inflation, wage increases, bonuses, rising stock market, excellent manufacturing employment statistics and reduced welfare rolls the nation is upset over tariffs that will hardly make a dent in personal and national economic growth. www.marketwatch.com/story/the-media-is-lying-to-you-about-trumps-china-tariffs-2019-05-14don't know about the nation, but yeah i'm pretty freaking pissed aapl is down 10% based on a few tweets. if you're happy, all the power to you and no, "the media" is not "lying" to me - and i don't even need to read "the media" to understand basic economic principles... that consumers will pay the tariffs (not China as trump claims) comes straight from the horse's mouth - the companies whose products are manufactured there: www.cnbc.com/2019/05/16/walmart-says-tariffs-will-increase-prices-for-shoppers.html
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Post by silkstone on May 16, 2019 8:08:17 GMT -8
The US Consumer is 70% of our economy so if they stop buying due to higher tariff pricing, it won’t take long for the proverbial s_ _t to hit the fan and once this baby starts turning she’s hard to stop. With 22 trillion in debt who knows how low she can go. It’s like playing chicken at 100 mph, who will blink first and if she does go over the cliff, we’ll prolly take everyone one else over with us. Then our leadership will have its legacy etched in stone and I will be way under water.
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Post by firestorm on May 16, 2019 8:10:23 GMT -8
>Still boggles my mind that after the corporate tax cuts, small business tax cuts, personal tax cuts, repatriation, massive anti business regulation cuts, good economic growth with low inflation, wage increases, bonuses, rising stock market, excellent manufacturing employment statistics and reduced welfare rolls the nation is upset over tariffs that will hardly make a dent in personal and national economic growth. www.marketwatch.com/story/the-media-is-lying-to-you-about-trumps-china-tariffs-2019-05-14<This opinion belongs in The Dungeon with the rest of the trolls, as it is overtly political.
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Post by hledgard on May 16, 2019 8:14:43 GMT -8
Ditto ! And thanks firestorm !
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Post by Lstream on May 16, 2019 8:30:54 GMT -8
Still boggles my mind that after the corporate tax cuts, small business tax cuts, personal tax cuts, repatriation, massive anti business regulation cuts, good economic growth with low inflation, wage increases, bonuses, rising stock market, excellent manufacturing employment statistics and reduced welfare rolls the nation is upset over tariffs that will hardly make a dent in personal and national economic growth. www.marketwatch.com/story/the-media-is-lying-to-you-about-trumps-china-tariffs-2019-05-14Never thought I would see the day where fiscally conservative right of center types would be defending tariffs. Or ignoring retaliation consequences like American farmers losing their largest soy bean market. What the media tells me is irrelevant on tariffs. I don’t need media ass clowns like that article to know how stupid tariffs are. But sure, cherry pick articles if they comfort you into believing that this insanity is benign. How about Apple getting smacked by 10% as a direct consequence of this trade war garbage? Or did the evil media make that up too? Are we still at $210 and don’t know it?
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Post by silkstone on May 16, 2019 8:44:16 GMT -8
Still boggles my mind that after the corporate tax cuts, small business tax cuts, personal tax cuts, repatriation, massive anti business regulation cuts, good economic growth with low inflation, wage increases, bonuses, rising stock market, excellent manufacturing employment statistics and reduced welfare rolls the nation is upset over tariffs that will hardly make a dent in personal and national economic growth. www.marketwatch.com/story/the-media-is-lying-to-you-about-trumps-china-tariffs-2019-05-14Never thought I would see the day where fiscally conservative right of center types would be defending tariffs. Or ignoring retaliation consequences like American farmers losing their largest soy bean market. What the media tells me is irrelevant on tariffs. I don’t need media ass clowns like that article to know how stupid tariffs are. But sure, cherry pick articles if they comfort you into believing that this insanity is benign. How about Apple getting smacked by 10% as a direct consequence of this trade war garbage? Or did the evil media make that up too? Are we still at $210 and don’t know it? Yes, it hurts all Apple shareholders. I hope it works out for us.
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Post by gtrplyr on May 16, 2019 9:32:49 GMT -8
Still boggles my mind that after the corporate tax cuts, small business tax cuts, personal tax cuts, repatriation, massive anti business regulation cuts, good economic growth with low inflation, wage increases, bonuses, rising stock market, excellent manufacturing employment statistics and reduced welfare rolls the nation is upset over tariffs that will hardly make a dent in personal and national economic growth. www.marketwatch.com/story/the-media-is-lying-to-you-about-trumps-china-tariffs-2019-05-14Go ask some farmers if the tariffs "hardly make a dent" ... For that matter, ask Tim Cook if he thinks a trade war and tariffs are a good idea for Apple's sales and growth? The ONLY story right now with regards to AAPL's share price is the China/US trade issue. It's not good for either economy and the Apple and it's shareholders are directly in the crosshairs. My biggest concern is the fact that China and it's people are simply more willing to suffer than the average American .... maybe I'm wrong but that's my opinion. Cheers to the longs ....
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Post by macster on May 16, 2019 10:10:03 GMT -8
Still boggles my mind that after the corporate tax cuts, small business tax cuts, personal tax cuts, repatriation, massive anti business regulation cuts, good economic growth with low inflation, wage increases, bonuses, rising stock market, excellent manufacturing employment statistics and reduced welfare rolls the nation is upset over tariffs that will hardly make a dent in personal and national economic growth. www.marketwatch.com/story/the-media-is-lying-to-you-about-trumps-china-tariffs-2019-05-14Go ask some farmers if the tariffs "hardly make a dent" ... For that matter, ask Tim Cook if he thinks a trade war and tariffs are a good idea for Apple's sales and growth? The ONLY story right now with regards to AAPL's share price is the China/US trade issue. It's not good for either economy and the Apple and it's shareholders are directly in the crosshairs. My biggest concern is the fact that China and it's people are simply more willing to suffer than the average American .... maybe I'm wrong but that's my opinion. Cheers to the longs .... It neither good to keep the status quo of billions in trade deficits with another country. The WTO is weak, talking nice to China wont help either and there is no other country able to convince China to make reforms for the good of the world. And as far as whats his name firestorm who fled the political threads years ago, my responses are to those fellow Apple shareholders political posts who hate the current president like Lstream who trashes the President in the daily threads over what is a common misconception about Tariffs even from experts. For example Investopedia does not name the actual entity who pays the Tariff here... Who Collects a Tariff? Tariffs are paid to the customs authority of the country imposing the tariff. Tariffs on imports coming into the United States, for example, are collected by Customs and Border Protection, acting on behalf of the Commerce Department. In the U.K., it's HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) that collects the money. Who Benefits? The benefits of tariffs are uneven. Because a tariff is a tax, the government will see increased revenue as imports enter the domestic market. Domestic industries also benefit from a reduction in competition, since import prices are artificially inflated. Here is a analyst who says the exporter pays the tariff. Maybe just maybe Trump knows exactly what he's talking about but doesn't care explaining to the media (who tell you what the president says)(usually exaggerated or false) what he means because he's focused on the pain that China feels in executing a tariff on them. Sure enough they do pay. And as far as the farmers they have always been subsidized and to date have been helped offset the losses. I have never started political crap thrashing people or name calling on the daily threads period
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Post by Lstream on May 16, 2019 10:31:56 GMT -8
Macster - you are dead wrong about how tariffs work. I run a tech company and am paying them right now. Because Trump decided that Canada and Mexico are a security threat he levied tariffs on aluminum and steel. And we reciprocated. We buy aluminum castings from an American supplier. They are subject to tariffs. Of course they are collected by the broker. Why does it matter who collects them? That is hardly the point. We are billed by our broker for those costs. WE, THE MANUFACTURER PAY THEM. Get it?
And guess what. If this keeps up, then that supplier is going to lose our business. They are great, but they are more expensive than China. Once this product is through launch and into volume, we will switch, because there is no way we are paying that tax indefinitely. Chinese supplier wins. American supplier loses.
As long as you continue to believe the total nonsense, about who actually pays, I expect there is no getting through to you, or the countless others that believe the lies and bull shit coming out of the White House and this President. Why should I believe that he has an end game, when this BASIC fact on how tariffs work, are beyond his grasp. And on the off chance, that this is not beyond his grasp, then why should I believe him when he just spews lies.
Now tell me again, who these supposed experts of yours are, when they cannot even understand the basics of tariffs.
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Post by macster on May 16, 2019 11:22:40 GMT -8
Macster - you are dead wrong about how tariffs work. I run a tech company and am paying them right now. Because Trump decided that Canada and Mexico are a security threat he levied tariffs on aluminum and steel. And we reciprocated. We buy aluminum castings from an American supplier. They are subject to tariffs. Of course they are collected by the broker. Why does it matter who collects them? That is hardly the point. We are billed by our broker for those costs. WE, THE MANUFACTURER PAY THEM. Get it? And guess what. If this keeps up, then that supplier is going to lose our business. They are great, but they are more expensive than China. Once this product is through launch and into volume, we will switch, because there is no way we are paying that tax indefinitely. Chinese supplier wins. American supplier loses. As long as you continue to believe the total nonsense, about who actually pays, I expect there is no getting through to you, or the countless others that believe the lies and bull shit coming out of the White House and this President. Why should I believe that he has an end game, when this BASIC fact on how tariffs work, are beyond his grasp. And on the off chance, that this is not beyond his grasp, then why should I believe him when he just spews lies. Now tell me again, who these supposed experts of yours are, when they cannot even understand the basics of tariffs. Fine I understand you. The white house like any other white house for PR reasons are not going to dwell on the negative aspects of what could be an eventual agreement. Thats like adding oxygen to a fire or leading the Chinese to stall waiting for more favorable terms. The Chinese supplier doesn't necessarily win, thats your opinion imo. Curious how much your company is paying that offsets the benefits of the business tax cuts or regulation cuts if any apply. Probably not easy to calculate. Please respond if you will I'm done.
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Post by rickag on May 16, 2019 11:33:54 GMT -8
you're posting an article from october 4th (it's in the link).... curious, where did you see this pop up? On another board I frequent. I apologize for any confusion.
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Post by Lstream on May 16, 2019 11:41:55 GMT -8
In case you are not really "done", I do see that you are now into full goal post moving mode. First, it was tariffs are OK because China or someone else pays them. Not the manufacturer. Now with that being debunked, the explanation is that it is some kind of PR trick. Nice try, but nope. I stand by what I said a couple of days ago. Trump ends up caving. Makes a bunch of BS racket about it. And the tariff pain and collateral damage will be for nothing. That is how he operates. All bluster and no substance. Wait for it.
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Post by firestorm on May 16, 2019 11:41:56 GMT -8
Go ask some farmers if the tariffs "hardly make a dent" ... For that matter, ask Tim Cook if he thinks a trade war and tariffs are a good idea for Apple's sales and growth? The ONLY story right now with regards to AAPL's share price is the China/US trade issue. It's not good for either economy and the Apple and it's shareholders are directly in the crosshairs. My biggest concern is the fact that China and it's people are simply more willing to suffer than the average American .... maybe I'm wrong but that's my opinion. Cheers to the longs .... It neither good to keep the status quo of billions in trade deficits with another country. The WTO is weak, talking nice to China wont help either and there is no other country able to convince China to make reforms for the good of the world. And as far as whats his name firestorm who fled the political threads years ago, my responses are to those fellow Apple shareholders political posts who hate the current president like Lstream who trashes the President in the daily threads over what is a common misconception about Tariffs even from experts. For example Investopedia does not name the actual entity who pays the Tariff here... Who Collects a Tariff? Tariffs are paid to the customs authority of the country imposing the tariff. Tariffs on imports coming into the United States, for example, are collected by Customs and Border Protection, acting on behalf of the Commerce Department. In the U.K., it's HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) that collects the money. Who Benefits? The benefits of tariffs are uneven. Because a tariff is a tax, the government will see increased revenue as imports enter the domestic market. Domestic industries also benefit from a reduction in competition, since import prices are artificially inflated. Here is a analyst who says the exporter pays the tariff. Maybe just maybe Trump knows exactly what he's talking about but doesn't care explaining to the media (who tell you what the president says)(usually exaggerated or false) what he means because he's focused on the pain that China feels in executing a tariff on them. Sure enough they do pay. And as far as the farmers they have always been subsidized and to date have been helped offset the losses. I have never started political crap thrashing people or name calling on the daily threads period More political crap: take it to the dungeon.
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Post by zzmac on May 16, 2019 11:43:22 GMT -8
Go ask some farmers if the tariffs "hardly make a dent" ... For that matter, ask Tim Cook if he thinks a trade war and tariffs are a good idea for Apple's sales and growth? The ONLY story right now with regards to AAPL's share price is the China/US trade issue. It's not good for either economy and the Apple and it's shareholders are directly in the crosshairs. My biggest concern is the fact that China and it's people are simply more willing to suffer than the average American .... maybe I'm wrong but that's my opinion. Cheers to the longs .... It neither good to keep the status quo of billions in trade deficits with another country. The WTO is weak, talking nice to China wont help either and there is no other country able to convince China to make reforms for the good of the world. And as far as whats his name firestorm who fled the political threads years ago, my responses are to those fellow Apple shareholders political posts who hate the current president like Lstream who trashes the President in the daily threads over what is a common misconception about Tariffs even from experts. For example Investopedia does not name the actual entity who pays the Tariff here... Who Collects a Tariff? Tariffs are paid to the customs authority of the country imposing the tariff. Tariffs on imports coming into the United States, for example, are collected by Customs and Border Protection, acting on behalf of the Commerce Department. In the U.K., it's HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) that collects the money. Who Benefits? The benefits of tariffs are uneven. Because a tariff is a tax, the government will see increased revenue as imports enter the domestic market. Domestic industries also benefit from a reduction in competition, since import prices are artificially inflated. Here is a analyst who says the exporter pays the tariff. Maybe just maybe Trump knows exactly what he's talking about but doesn't care explaining to the media (who tell you what the president says)(usually exaggerated or false) what he means because he's focused on the pain that China feels in executing a tariff on them. Sure enough they do pay. And as far as the farmers they have always been subsidized and to date have been helped offset the losses. I have never started political crap thrashing people or name calling on the daily threads period In the rare instance someone starts a comment or conversation by saying “Maybe just maybe Trump knows exactly what he’s talking about”, what follows cannot be factual or logical simply by empirical evidence.
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stub
Member
The fix is in. Be patient. Don't panic.
Posts: 300
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Post by stub on May 16, 2019 11:46:23 GMT -8
hey umm...
did anybody bother to notice/mention what a gift AAPL being down this week is?
as in auto re-investment of stock dividends?
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bud777
fire starter
Posts: 1,352
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Post by bud777 on May 16, 2019 12:26:21 GMT -8
i have been confused by this entire affair. how does someone add a chip to a board without first changing the layout of the board? this would require access to the files that specify the board layout, a much more ambitious operation. Wouldn't QA design tools catch the changes? if the boards were altered to accept a new chip, why would Bloomberg write an story misleading people to the idea that the damage ie done by a specific chip? it seems like a mis-information campaign designed to give people a simple idea they can grab onto and ultimately to raise doubt about thr security of our infrastructure. Now why would snyone want to do that? andWho? Creating the impression that we ae the victims of a state sponsered hardware based cyber attack would be a valuable weapon if we want to justify a trade war. Beyond that, I do not know enough about companies that stand to win or lose to venture a theory. Still it is interesting how this story came out on Bloomberg, was completely debunked and Bloomberg never responded to the pushback. Now with the new round of tariffs hitting, it gets more play. Is it simply a way to distract from the tariff blunder? repeating a story that doess not make sense with a louder megaphone feels like thr "Big Lie" approach. say it often enough and loud enough and prople will believe it or as Hitler put it " the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily". I will remain skeptical until Bloomberg reponds to the questions raised by the article.
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Post by gtrplyr on May 16, 2019 12:29:25 GMT -8
hey umm... did anybody bother to notice/mention what a gift AAPL being down this week is? as in auto re-investment of stock dividends? I feel pretty blessed already so I’d prefer no more gifts from here on out 😜 Cheers to the longs
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stub
Member
The fix is in. Be patient. Don't panic.
Posts: 300
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Post by stub on May 16, 2019 12:32:31 GMT -8
i have been confused by this entire affair. how does someone add a chip to a board without first changing the layout of the board? this would require access to the files that specify the board layout, a much more ambitious operation. Wouldn't QA design tools catch the changes? if the boards were altered to accept a new chip, why would Bloomberg write an story misleading people to the idea that the damage ie done by a specific chip? it seems like a mis-information campaign designed to give people a simple idea they can grab onto and ultimately to raise doubt about thr security of our infrastructure. Now why would snyone want to do that? andWho? Creating the impression that we ae the victims of a state sponsered hardware based cyber attack would be a valuable weapon if we want to justify a trade war. Beyond that, I do not know enough about companies that stand to win or lose to venture a theory. Still it is interesting how this story came out on Bloomberg, was completely debunked and Bloomberg never responded to the pushback. Now with the new round of tariffs hitting, it gets more play. Is it simply a way to distract from the tariff blunder? repeating a story that doess not make sense with a louder megaphone feels like thr "Big Lie" approach. say it often enough and loud enough and prople will believe it or as Hitler put it " the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily". I will remain skeptical until Bloomberg reponds to the questions raised by the article. I think you have a broken keyboard, or maybe spell check?
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Post by socal Film Composer on May 16, 2019 15:15:24 GMT -8
just to take a break from news cycle stuff - I think this seeking alpha post is fascinating and quite well documented - lots of good numbers and assumptions - which lead us to..... $422.51 by end of FY 2026 Apple's Buybacks Provide Strong Long-Term UpsideThoughts? feel free to poke holes in his argument - which he actually does himself in the latter half.... Here's to better days ahead. The leveraging affect of buybacks explained mathematically is especially useful and encouraging.
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Post by Luckychoices on May 16, 2019 16:59:16 GMT -8
Go ask some farmers if the tariffs "hardly make a dent" ... For that matter, ask Tim Cook if he thinks a trade war and tariffs are a good idea for Apple's sales and growth? The ONLY story right now with regards to AAPL's share price is the China/US trade issue. It's not good for either economy and the Apple and it's shareholders are directly in the crosshairs. My biggest concern is the fact that China and it's people are simply more willing to suffer than the average American .... maybe I'm wrong but that's my opinion. Cheers to the longs .... It neither good to keep the status quo of billions in trade deficits with another country. The WTO is weak, talking nice to China wont help either and there is no other country able to convince China to make reforms for the good of the world. And as far as whats his name firestorm who fled the political threads years ago, my responses are to those fellow Apple shareholders political posts who hate the current president like Lstream who trashes the President in the daily threads over what is a common misconception about Tariffs even from experts.This just in: If a tariff "expert" doesn't understand and *state* that it's the *consumer* who ends up paying the tariff, they're either *not* an expert or they know the consumer ends up paying the tariff and they're being dishonest. For example Investopedia does not name the actual entity who pays the Tariff here... Who Collects a Tariff? Tariffs are paid to the customs authority of the country imposing the tariff. Tariffs on imports coming into the United States, for example, are collected by Customs and Border Protection, acting on behalf of the Commerce Department. In the U.K., it's HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) that collects the money. Who Benefits? The benefits of tariffs are uneven. Because a tariff is a tax, the government will see increased revenue as imports enter the domestic market. Domestic industries also benefit from a reduction in competition, since import prices are artificially inflated. Those "Domestic industries" do not include soybean farmers, for one example, because soybean farmers have lost, perhaps forever, their *entire* soybean market in China. That's clearly not a benefit. Also, when you see the phrase, "...since import prices are artificially inflated", doesn't it make you wonder why they stated it that way instead of stating, "...the consumer's price will, in all probability, *increase* because of the tariff"? Here is a analyst who says the exporter pays the tariff. Uh, yeah. Probably better to *not* use William West, Capital Markets Analyst as an expert on tariffs. He clearly is not. Maybe just maybe Trump knows exactly what he's talking about but doesn't care explaining to the media (who tell you what the president says)(usually exaggerated or false) what he means because he's focused on the pain that China feels in executing a tariff on them. "Maybe, just maybe, Trump knows exactly what he's talking about..."? Oh, that's so cute that you think that! Now I know you'd like to think that the MSM always exaggerates or lies about what Trump says, but here's the thing...Trump could simply *explain* what he means in a video clip and he would be speaking *directly* to the American people without that nasty media lying about it. Sure enough they do pay. And as far as the farmers they have always been subsidized and to date have been helped offset the losses. So where do you suppose the government gets the money for the subsidies...and now "the losses"? That would be from *us*, the taxpayers. Now some of our tax money will be diverted to help cover some the losses caused by Trump's tariffs. I have never started political crap thrashing people or name calling on the daily threads period No, of course not. You restricted your thrashing people and name calling to a Dungeon thread identified with the name of an AFB member who'd been commenting on AFB since 2012. You haven't exactly been taking the high road.
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Post by zzmac on May 16, 2019 19:46:24 GMT -8
In other news today my beautiful German Shepherd had successful cancer surgery today. Oh yea and fuck Trump.
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Post by eastbaybob on May 16, 2019 21:03:53 GMT -8
I am tired of the "take it to the dungeon" posts. Everything posted has to do with Apple and the shareholders. So tired of people being so thin skinned. I have been here on AFB from the very beginning when Dawn Treader was the moderator, a few years before the iPod. Have seen people come and go
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Post by macster on May 16, 2019 21:23:15 GMT -8
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