4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,622
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Post by 4aapl on Oct 15, 2019 5:25:43 GMT -8
Good morning all From yesterday: This is a communal place. While I have been granted the keys to the kingdom, I don't want to dictate what can or can't happen here. It's not just my sandbox, but rather all of ours. In the past we have made it fine for years with only using self-moderation, following the general principles of staying on topic, not attacking others (posters here or otherwise), and generally staying respectful. If there is some reason we should stray from these guidelines passed down through past moderators of the site, we can change this. But if only a few posters can't handle the guidelines for the daily thread, they should find another forum to frequent. Self-moderation is still the goal. We have multiple moderators present and past who are taking breaks due various reasons. Personally, I don't want to get more hands on, but I will start banning posters or moving posts into black holes if that is the only thing that can keep this board alive. That shouldn't be needed. But take a look at what got posted over the past couple weeks. We can do better than this. The question is, what do we, as a group, want to see and do here? LongSince1ish suggested we run a poll to see what people want. I'm not sure we have even basic polling that some sites like TMF have, but let's keep this a little more open-ended. For today, each member posts once. Keep it relatively short and straightforward, somewhere in the 1 sentence to 1 paragraph length. And to keep it simple, no replying to others or quoting them. Your thoughts, on what should or should not go on the daily thread, and how to keep things civil. And I'd love to see posts by people that normally just read the site. Let's see how this goes. Thanks everyone. "We have the choice to build this board up, or tear it down. Make the right choice, or don't post here."
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chinacat
Moderator
AAPL Long since 2006
Posts: 4,426
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Post by chinacat on Oct 15, 2019 5:55:49 GMT -8
1. Opinions on new Apple products, especially by people who have actually bought/used them
2. Links to reviews of same
3. Links to columns by respected Apple columnists and reviewers
4. Thoughts on or links to columns discussing strategies of Apple and/or their competitors
5. Links to and discussions of governmental actions by the US or other countries that affect Apple
6. No political commentary that does not directly affect Apple or their customers
7. Respectful counter proposals/arguments to previously posted opinions
8. No personal attacks
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ono
Member
compensation
Posts: 537
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Post by ono on Oct 15, 2019 7:19:27 GMT -8
9. Simply, all of the above.
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Post by gtrplyr on Oct 15, 2019 7:26:25 GMT -8
I agree with chinacat
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Post by carbonate24 on Oct 15, 2019 8:19:45 GMT -8
--For those who don't already read PED 3.0, I would suggest checking it out. The stories are good, but sometimes, the comment string is even better. While I have seen some occasions where interactions between a few get heated, there seems to be an overall theme of intelligent discussion(s) and a general respect among the commenters. That's not to say it is perfect, but I wish AFB could use that site as a model of how to interact with one another.
--I value the bullish and bearish opinions on this site, but I really cannot stand when there are sarcastic attacks on other AFB members or either political party. Those comments add nothing of value to the conversation and tend to detract from the actual topic. I think there is plenty of room for discussions of policies and of actions of those in power, without the added bullshit, bush league trash talk that seems to find its way into the daily thread.
--As far as moderation goes, I'm fine with the moderators removing problem comments, as long as it is generally limited to the most egregious ones. We don't need another debate on why some questionable comments are removed vs. others. I don't believe self moderation alone is working.
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Post by lulli on Oct 15, 2019 8:25:16 GMT -8
I'd say everything that chinacat said, plus the same list with "AAPL" instead of "Apple" (because we are also intested in what affects the value of the stock because of overreactions or misinformation), and I'd include also links and discussion of columns by "not respected" people as long as context is provided (because those things can affect sentiment).
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crispin
Member
KBJ for the win. AAPL long and strong since 2000
Posts: 311
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Post by crispin on Oct 15, 2019 8:58:40 GMT -8
It’s hard to find any fault with what Chinacat listed. I would tend to favor a fairly light-handed moderation, especially considering the “ignore” option works well enough to eliminate consistently unhelpful or irrelevant posters.
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Post by zzmac on Oct 15, 2019 9:13:14 GMT -8
Have a separate forum for people who like to discuss options and make stock price predictions. Ban same from this forum.
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Dave
Member
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." Yogi Berra
Posts: 4,090
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Post by Dave on Oct 15, 2019 9:34:36 GMT -8
There are few activities today that are not affected by politics, especially for a company as large as Apple with markets around the world. A meaningful discussion of the political winds is as important in finding direction for Apple/AAPL as it would be for any company and it should always be considered. Key words here: Meaningful Discussion. I'm perfectly happy with The Dungeon being the place for these discussions and not the Intraday/Weekend Updates pages. And any violations of location for said discussion will be reprimanded and the post will be deleted. Gone forever. If you feel that you have in someway been insulted and want to throw a temper tantrum of complaints then you too will lose your privilege to post. This would apply to everyone, including myself. Seems simple to me.
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walterwhite
Member
"I am the one who knocks!"... Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 346
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Post by walterwhite on Oct 15, 2019 10:57:56 GMT -8
4aapl... i applaud you for trying, though realize there are complexities in actually implementing a sound moderation policy... (almost) everyone agrees on the basics: no name-calling of others in the forum, no politics if it doesn't affect apple/AAPL, no ad hominems...
but how to enforce that... especially in grey areas, which is where rubber meets the road?
...i would err on the side of free speech, lest we end up with a situation of lstream's post deleted in may, which drove him out... so no deleting posts, unless a member of the forum is personally attacked (example post i think is ok to be deleted: aaplfinance.proboards.com/post/107055/thread - jd saying 'fuck you very much' directly to bud, while 'defending' trump... my response would also be deleted under this logic, as i called jd a 'fuckwit', among other things: aaplfinance.proboards.com/post/107058/thread - i am ok with this being deleted as the original offending post would have been deleted too...) ...that leaves many grey areas, which i'd appreciate if moderators moved to the dungeon first... clear example: aaplfinance.proboards.com/post/106965/thread (why is bud777 so 'lucky' with trolls responding to him? ... now, platon could argue it's related to apple b/c it was news of robbery, but clearly the spirit of his post is trolling those who don't want to argue assault weapon definitions) allowed in the daily thread (in addition to chinacat's excellent list and others' suggestions): 101. swearing ok (esp. light)... might be times when we want to add colorful language to apple analysts or competitors (not just politicians)
102. ranting ok when it directly affects apple/AAPL... so trump/trade wars (or elizabeth warren/break-up-big-tech) should be ok 103. price targets, technicals and short-term options (yes, sponge) should definitely be ok! i strongly disagree with zzmac on this one
(opinions of those such as sponge have been critical to my trading strategy... i'm serious)
if anyone does not like 101-103 i think they should use the block/ignore member function first before appealing to authority (and making moderation harder)
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Post by aaplsauce on Oct 15, 2019 11:02:33 GMT -8
A few thoughts:
There is no "I" in "communal sandbox".
I agree with the items listed by chinacat.
I agree with crispin regarding lite moderation. With the ignore button available to most participants, each individual can moderate their own thread. Additional rules & regulations will probably not increase participation. I've noticed that when there is a freewheeling spirited debate, usually involving politics and hopefully pertaining to /AAPL, the number of posts increase significantly. Even with the increased posts on those days, eye strain is really not a risk for readers.
I enjoy fact based viewpoints that are different than mine, but when the lies and conspiracy nonsense takes over, I can prune the thread with a click or two, and enjoy the information shared with the more informed folks here.
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chinacat
Moderator
AAPL Long since 2006
Posts: 4,426
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Post by chinacat on Oct 15, 2019 11:34:33 GMT -8
There are few activities today that are not affected by politics, especially for a company as large as Apple with markets around the world. A meaningful discussion of the political winds is as important in finding direction for Apple/AAPL as it would be for any company and it should always be considered. Key words here: Meaningful Discussion. I'm perfectly happy with The Dungeon being the place for these discussions and not the Intraday/Weekend Updates pages. And any violations of location for said discussion will be reprimanded and the post will be deleted. Gone forever. If you feel that you have in someway been insulted and want to throw a temper tantrum of complaints then you too will lose your privilege to post. This would apply to everyone, including myself. Seems simple to me. Dave, I think I understand your intent. However, as someone who has participated in Internet newsgroups and forums since the late 70’s (I was a software guy for almost 40 years), I can tell you that I have never seen one in which political topics failed to ultimately generate conflict and enmity. There is just too much emotion involved for too many people because politics inherently deals with topics that can have a significant impact on a person’s life, and the relative anonymity of the Internet tends to mask the humanity of those involved. As a moderator, I can tell you that there is rarely a clearcut right/wrong call that can be applied in such cases, and draconian punishments only become a secondary cause of anger in the supporters of the punished. We can all wish that it were not so, but my experience has convinced me that is an unrealistic expectation. Separating politics from all other topics is the only thing that works in my experience. I am willing to attempt to allow discussions of topics that affect Apple/AAPL, but I know from experience that way also ultimately ends in strife. I wish it were not so. I guess I don’t really consider the Dungeon a part of the forum, and I fear that emotions generated there will ultimately contaminate the main thread.
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Post by duckpins on Oct 15, 2019 11:56:28 GMT -8
The Warriors board for that team and other SF teams has a separate political board and an "off topic" board. Off course things bleed across from one another, now China is a hot NBA topic. forums.warriorsworld.net/main/This seems to work and is a good model IMHO.
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Post by davidstevenson on Oct 15, 2019 12:48:56 GMT -8
To elaborate on duckpins' Warriors example: I would suggest a separate "intraday" thread, say "Apple and Current Events." How this would work: links to current event articles would be posted to this thread and discussions of these would be encouraged to use this thread. The posts could be mentioned in the Intraday thread, but no links, other than a link to send readers to the appropriate thread. Example topics that would be appropriate for this new thread include: trade wars, EU clawback of Apple Irish taxes, Hong Kong protestors boycotting Apple (like Starbucks currently). All these topics could/should be discussed as they affect Apple/AAPL/Apple's reputation/etc. Some topics that could stay in the intraday: Apple product news, keynotes, earnings reports, apple store attendance observations.
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4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,622
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Post by 4aapl on Oct 15, 2019 19:00:03 GMT -8
I like chinacat's ideas, though I come here to get ideas and discussion on AAPL and Apple, with or without links. Personally, I've always liked it when there is a summary of some sort or at least a sentence about the link, so that I know if I should bother.
Sorry walterwhite, while I did take a pic of a coffee drink matching your moniker while at a great breakfast place in Paris, I would have yanked your post and possibly even banned you for your constant obsession about being a jerk, in a circle or otherwise. This is not the place...as the consensus is showing. I'm sure there are many a internet groups for that type of talk, but it's not here.
Likewise on the rants. Rant in the Dungeon if you must. And it seems some people must. But that, especially when going off on some non-AAPL/Apple specific tangent, is not the right fit for the daily thread.
Thanks everyone for your input. There's still 4 hours to get your thoughts in if you haven't yet. Pacific time is Apple headquarter's time, after all.
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Post by Odd-Lot Richard on Oct 15, 2019 20:52:12 GMT -8
I don’t think the poll should close for another few days. Many have taken time off from the intraday to cool down and should have a chance to give their input as to the direction of the board.
I agree with chinacat for the most part.
Apple products and Apple features (software, etc). Comparisons with competitors, as long as the focus is on Apple.
I don’t think political commentary should be verboten, but personal attacks should definitely be moderated with a heavy hand. Yes, political talk often gets people het up around here and often leads to the attacks, but it is the attacks that are damaging, not the political discussion. Didn’t hotheaded comments get moderated into the Dungeon once upon a time?
I don’t appreciate personal attacks on politicians, and I don’t recall having personally insulted any of the presidents on this board, no matter what I thought of them, but that’s me. I think using invective or dismissive remarks about a politician without it having any connection to what the board is about is a clear target for moderation, but I allow that may be more effort and subtle judgment than the current moderation team is willing to put forward.
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4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,622
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Post by 4aapl on Oct 16, 2019 5:04:07 GMT -8
I don’t think the poll should close for another few days. Many have taken time off from the intraday to cool down and should have a chance to give their input as to the direction of the board. That's a good thing to note. Late polling will stay open. For those who haven't yet shared their opinion on what they want to see on the board, please do. Longer term, I'd like to have another area for this board maintenance type of stuff.
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chinacat
Moderator
AAPL Long since 2006
Posts: 4,426
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Post by chinacat on Oct 16, 2019 5:38:31 GMT -8
I don’t recall having personally insulted any of the presidents on this board There are Presidents on this board !?!?!? (Sorry, couldn’t resist )
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Post by hledgard on Oct 16, 2019 6:17:32 GMT -8
It is one thing to say "The tariffs keep going up and down, so it is hard to decide how this affects AAPL"
It is another to say "This idiot in the White House does not have a clue about tariffs"
The latter bothers me.
Maybe the latter is true, but the statement does not belong on this board.
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Post by dreamRaj on Oct 16, 2019 7:01:30 GMT -8
+1 to chinacat's first post +1 to walterwhite I too think that options talk should definitely be allowed because there are a few like Walter and me (and you know who) who, apart from being longs, also do a lot of swing trading and we find it totally relevant for options to be a part of the intraday thread. Regarding price target predictions, even that should be okay because there's really only one person (again, you know who) that predicts by the day hour. It's not like any of us follow those predictions anyway. While many a time I see it as comedy, Walter does the opposite and gets richer
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chinacat
Moderator
AAPL Long since 2006
Posts: 4,426
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Post by chinacat on Oct 16, 2019 7:19:06 GMT -8
I have never done any trading, but the trade talk on the forum often gives me a view of what could be causing what sometimes is baffling (at least to me) movement in AAPL. In addition, there can be no doubt that trading, particularly by large institutions, is certainly a significant factor in the day to day movements, and more information is never bad IMHO.
If you are not interested, just skip those posts or block posters you feel are primarily or excessively focused on such topics.
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platon
Member
"All we can know is that we know nothing. And that's the height of human wisdom.? Tolstoy
Posts: 3,944
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Post by platon on Oct 16, 2019 8:15:11 GMT -8
“Maybe each human being lives in a unique world, a private world different from those inhabited and experienced by all other humans. . . If reality differs from person to person, can we speak of reality singular, or shouldn't we really be talking about plural realities? And if there are plural realities, are some more true (more real) than others? What about the world of a schizophrenic? Maybe it's as real as our world. Maybe we cannot say that we are in touch with reality and he is not, but should instead say, His reality is so different from ours that he can't explain his to us, and we can't explain ours to him. The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication ... and there is the real illness.” ― Philip K. Dick Politics are all about the realities that people see in the way government affects them. The problem is that moderation of these realities creates animosity among those whose reality is moderated. Moderators have their perceived realities regarding politics because they are human. The easiest boards to moderate are those which have few rules, where the moderators don't inject their reality onto the members. Moderators, being human, can make the forum into a perception of their reality at the risk of offending half their members. I think 4aapl has tried to be fair, it is a tough job. An open forum can be painful to participate on and usually degenerates into vulgarities and personal attacks and I understand why they would be moved to the Dungeon. The problem is that the perception of the realities and results of politics depends on where the moderator stands. “What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing. It also depends on what sort of person you are.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Magician's Nephew My vote is to keep the Dungeon open and I am OK with moving posts from the Daily to the Dungeon, as long as they are done fairly, which 4apple has demonstrated that he is capable of doing. Personal attacks (an attack on a belief or an idea or an agenda is not a personal attack) should be deleted, the poster warned and multiple violations banned. Attacks on one's politics are not personal attacks from either side. I will be glad to go to the Dungeon and discuss which side of this political divide is seeking to silence the other side in all venues, and not just talk forums, if anyone would like to compare notes on that. I sold most of my AAPL shares the last time AAPL was above $230 and kept only the shares that I have a 0$ cost basis in, because I believed that the market was going to tank before the 2020 election, I was early and wish I had bought back when AAPL tanked, but I did not. I will not get back in until after the election, if then. My reasoning I cannot discuss, because it is political, anywhere but in the Dungeon and I am fine with that. The following quote from Walter is an example of why we need the Dungeon. I was not "trolling" Bud, Bud responded to my post where I was trolling Firestorm, who was trolling JD. I did not refer to politics at all in my post, rather I corrected factually inaccurate reporting in the news articles as well as Firestorm's post to JD. I even apologized for the post because I knew some would take it as political and suggested moving the discussion to the Dungeon. If any post should have been moved to the Dungeon it should have been Firestorm's since it was at the very least an effort to politicize the subject. I would also point out to Walter that I don't consider "f you very much" a personal attack, but calling someone an "fwit", I do consider to be a personal attack. I guess Walter and I are just standing in different spots. From Walter: (...that leaves many grey areas, which i'd appreciate if moderators moved to the dungeon first... clear example: aaplfinance.proboards.com/post/106965/thread (why is bud777 so 'lucky' with trolls responding to him? ... now, platon could argue it's related to apple b/c it was news of robbery, but clearly the spirit of his post is trolling those who don't want to argue assault weapon definitions)
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walterwhite
Member
"I am the one who knocks!"... Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 346
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Post by walterwhite on Oct 16, 2019 8:45:56 GMT -8
I was not "trolling" Bud, Bud responded to my post where I was trolling Firestorm, who was trolling JD. ... I would also point out to Walter that I don't consider "f you very much" a personal attack, but calling someone an "fwit", I do consider to be a personal attack. I guess Walter and I are just standing in different spots. i know 4aapl asked to not reply or quote, i just want to point out that i agree with 95% of platon's post! weird, i know, right? the one part i'm puzzled by is 'f you very much' not being a personal attack, especially when delivered with a middle finger emoji (isn't giving someone the finger the quintessential personal attack?) - but sure, let's not quibble amongst friends, especially since such posts directed against specific members would be dungeon'd (or deleted) in the future... oh hey i invented a new term: to dungeon a post / to be dungeon'd @ 4aapl... glad you thought of me while on vacation in paris! i'm honored... 😁 but, you know, you could just ask me to tone it down before invoking the b-word (banning) 🤷
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Post by laf on Oct 17, 2019 5:01:24 GMT -8
I like the open discussion, predictions, options, etc. that come from different perspectives, strategies and goals. I am also quite OK with political discussion because as many have stated, politics impacts Apple and aapl.
I agree with the sentiment voiced earlier: ---
It is one thing to say "The tariffs keep going up and down, so it is hard to decide how this affects AAPL"
It is another to say "This idiot in the White House does not have a clue about tariffs" --- Mostly I think the board members should sensor themselves about personal attacks or childish responses like "F u very much" etc. I don't really care, as I can just choose to move on, but I know other (valuable) members may move on from the site and that would be a loss that i do care about.
I also very much appreciate the efforts of Chinacat to open the daily thread and of the moderators and others who seek to create a communal space. I truly enjoy reading the comments and appreciate the opportunity to learn and listen.
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JDSoCal
Member
Aspiring oligarch
Posts: 4,182
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Post by JDSoCal on Oct 17, 2019 12:13:36 GMT -8
IMO, if the mods want to banish/move/moderate political posts, all I ask is fairness and evenhandedness towards both sides. Several times I have come on here and people are dogging Trump with no consequence, then I respond, and I’m suddenly attacked as muckraker. I mean, innocent me, muckraker?! WTH?
I would say to options traders, clearly they have a different holding window than the longs, which can lead to some disgruntlement and disagreement, but make no mistake: Options trading affects the price of AAPL stock as we approach expiries, so of course options are relevant to the Intraday, whether you trade them or not.
🥂🍻 to the longs.
p.s. - While I think we should strive for civility among all holders of AAPL, regardless of political persuasion, I think we can all agree that AAPL shorts are sociopaths who should be mocked and shunned. 🥂
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Post by longsince98 on Oct 17, 2019 13:21:14 GMT -8
Apologies for not responding on the first day - I’m moving homes this week.
I would echo what Chinacat thoughtfully listed in his first post of this thread.
I will just add that despite the fact that AAPL is affected by politics, we all know the difference between discussing “hot button” topics in a respectful way vs an inflaming way. It’s a matter of phrasing your comments or replies in a way that treat the other POV & person respectfully, vs in an insulting or otherwise triggering way,
While you may not personally care to bend to the needs of your political opponent, if you value this board and don’t want it to continually be abandoned by long standing valuable contributors, it’s worth that slight bit of extra effort.
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chinacat
Moderator
AAPL Long since 2006
Posts: 4,426
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Post by chinacat on Oct 17, 2019 15:31:14 GMT -8
IMO, if the mods want to banish/move/moderate political posts, all I ask is fairness and evenhandedness towards both sides. Therein lies the problem. The perception of “fairness and evenhandedness” is intrinsically a political decision. One needs only to read the comments in this thread to see that the definition of that phrase has no universally agreed-upon definition. I have the same high regard for 4aapl, but to believe that none of his decisions would ever be questioned is Pollyanna thinking of the highest order. It is also naive to believe that political issues that affect Apple/APPL and/or their customers and suppliers will be any less partisan. Perhaps they can be less likely to diverge into partisan attacks, assuming that all forum members ultimately desire outcomes that most favor Apple, but I remain unconvinced. As I have mentioned, I have been around this block more than once. I claim no particular wisdom, only the scars and whatever knowledge that can be gained from experience.
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Post by longsince98 on Oct 18, 2019 4:43:28 GMT -8
I think while “The perception of “fairness and evenhandedness” is intrinsically a political decision”, the perception of respectful treatment vs inflaming attacks is a judgement call which is appropriate for a moderator in such circumstances - the alternative being alienating good members.
We may not all agree on the right threshold, but someone has to make that judgement call, and I feel that is most fair coming from people who are dedicating their personal time to running the boards.
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chinacat
Moderator
AAPL Long since 2006
Posts: 4,426
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Post by chinacat on Oct 18, 2019 5:25:40 GMT -8
I think while “The perception of “fairness and evenhandedness” is intrinsically a political decision”, the perception of respectful treatment vs inflaming attacks is a judgement call which is appropriate for a moderator in such circumstances - the alternative being alienating good members. We may not all agree on the right threshold, but someone has to make that judgement call, and I feel that is most fair coming from people who are dedicating their personal time to running the boards. Yes, of course the moderators should make the calls, but... . The rules should minimize the number of calls that need to be made . The rules should have enough clarity to minimize claims of bias . There is already a place, The Dungeon, where the politically-obsessed can debate as freely as they wish My long experience with Internet forums tells me that there are those who when given an inch will take a mile. Clearly, there seems to be enough sentiment that the Board will be less valuable without political discussions in the main thread. I believe that they drive away some valuable contributors and make moderation much more difficult. I appear to be in the minority, so let’s see who steps up to take on the task.
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