benoir
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Post by benoir on Jan 6, 2020 4:56:17 GMT -8
A bit of red out there. Surely not Ricky Gervais....
...hey, just trying to get a conversation going!
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Dave
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"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." Yogi Berra
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Post by Dave on Jan 6, 2020 5:34:49 GMT -8
Sometimes the truth hurts, no matter how it’s presented.
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chinacat
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AAPL Long since 2006
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Post by chinacat on Jan 6, 2020 6:25:17 GMT -8
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Dave
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"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." Yogi Berra
Posts: 4,091
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Post by Dave on Jan 6, 2020 6:59:07 GMT -8
I see that last weeks gap was filled this morning.
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Post by BillH on Jan 6, 2020 7:53:32 GMT -8
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4aapl
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Post by 4aapl on Jan 6, 2020 7:59:07 GMT -8
How do you define innovation?
Yesterday, after cleaning up some things inside, the kids went out to play in the snow. They started sledding and testing out a toy snowboard from the neighbor, and riding a sled as a snowboard, but were disappointed with our minimally sloped yard. Pretty soon they were mining the pond for ice slabs, and now they have a course paved with ice. The largest slab is about 2.5'x3' and 3" thick, leading down from a starting ramp on top of a kids plastic play table. Old aluminum tent poles along the path finished the setup, creating an Operation like challenge of riding the course without touching the edge.
Many of Apple's recent innovations might not be completely ground breaking, but they use resources and software in a new or better way to make a better product.
Sometimes they even change the playing field!
(Kids are back in school! Careful out there! In our school district we're having a record number of kids getting hit by cars this year, likely due to both kids and drivers being distracted.)
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chinacat
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Post by chinacat on Jan 6, 2020 8:47:09 GMT -8
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JDSoCal
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Aspiring oligarch
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Post by JDSoCal on Jan 6, 2020 9:31:37 GMT -8
Gervais was hilarious. It was awesome to see narcissistic celebrities who came to have their butts kissed in typical fashion, sit there awkwardly stonefaced while be taken down. I did see Ray Romano laugh. Scorsese laughed at himself. DiCaprio smirked as he thought about all the supermodels he's banged. But most of them looked like they were about to cry and it was great. You can tell a lot about someone by how they react to being made fun of. I could laugh at the Apple stuff too. Whatevs, we all know Apple has policies to address these things. (I thought the SNL Apple sketch a few years ago was funny too). Tim should have smiled through it. Gervais has learned that you never, ever apologize to the outrage mobs. You double down. "I don't care." Good stuff. Gervais made me watch some of the presentation that I otherwise wouldn't have any interest in whatsoever. Now let's get back up past 300.
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Dave
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"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." Yogi Berra
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Post by Dave on Jan 6, 2020 9:42:27 GMT -8
Apple: We pay our slaves better than anyone else!
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JDSoCal
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Aspiring oligarch
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Post by JDSoCal on Jan 6, 2020 11:11:08 GMT -8
Without excusing Apple, and hoping that their reported oversight activities can actually effect positive change, I have to wonder how many of the conservative pundits here support unions in the good ol’ USA. Well, since you asked (links to Dungeon).
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Post by deasys on Jan 6, 2020 11:11:48 GMT -8
Apple: We pay our slaves better than anyone else! I think you're using "slave" in the quippy "wage slave" sense. Am I right, Dave? Yes, so many of us are "slaves…"
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Post by duckpins on Jan 6, 2020 11:30:10 GMT -8
Apple: We pay our slaves better than anyone else!
And we don't make them wear those awkward collars, we fit them with a chip instead!
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4aapl
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Post by 4aapl on Jan 6, 2020 11:34:53 GMT -8
Apple: We pay our slaves better than anyone else! That link is from the 2018 report. In most cases, things were improving, though those core violations increased dramatically. Some are easily seen as bad, such as debt-bonded labor. Others really would need some more color, as working more than 60 hours a week depends greatly on if it was the employees choice (and ideally they were getting more compensation), or if it was a forced requirement for employment. I've worked more than 60-hour weeks. At ON when breaking off from Motorola, there was no added compensation aside from a free dinner. At Apple, for my last 6 months as a contractor before becoming an employee, I averaged 60 hours a week. The top might have been 70. But that was being paid hourly, so it was time and a half above 40, and double time the rare occasion where I put in more than 12 hours a day. That time it was completely my choice, and without a lot of other stuff going on that gave me extra funds to put into AAPL. I was told that I could work overtime, and my timecard had to be signed weekly, but I wasn't forced to do it. OTOH, as a salaried employee, there and at all of the companies I worked for, there were times I was expected to work unpaid overtime. I doubt these suppliers are giving that much leeway, and are likely closer to the "forced overtime", but it isn't always 100% cut and dry. Especially for those that are in dorms away from their family, and don't really have much else going on. The 2019 report is on Apple's site at www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2019_Progress_Report.pdfI don't have time to read the whole thing, but skimming through it says there were 27 violations. So, 22 in 2016, 44 in 2017, and 27 in 2018, all while increasing the standards. Here's the info on the actual violations: Additionally, it says there were no Health and Safety Core Violations in 2018. I don't pretend to think that all is perfect in all of Apple's suppliers, just as I don't think all is perfect with the treatment of every single Apple employee. There always will be some, ok I'm going to say it, Bad Apples. But given how Apple is going after these things, and the type of problems they found (the one Underage Labor Violation was 15 years and 10 months old, and used a fake id), I feel Apple is doing a pretty good job and even extending its sphere of influence to make sure other places are doing a pretty good job too, all while striving to do even better.
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chinacat
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Post by chinacat on Jan 6, 2020 12:20:57 GMT -8
I regret my earlier political post. Unfortunately, I was unable to delete as soon as I would have liked. Mea culpa.
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Dave
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"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." Yogi Berra
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Post by Dave on Jan 6, 2020 12:58:52 GMT -8
Apple: We pay our slaves better than anyone else! I think you're using "slave" in the quippy "wage slave" sense. Am I right, Dave? Yes, so many of us are "slaves…" Okay, I understand that everyone here gets tired hearing me beat the drum about Tim Cook and the direction he is taking Apple as I'm tired of beating that drum. Tim Cook has been a great leader of what may be one of the greatest and most influential companies of our lifetime. But I see the danger of some of his decisions that may bite us all in the butt one day. Tim continues to drag Apple into some controversial areas. Areas that can become very polarizing. And as the figurehead of the company he is causing people to take sides on the view of Apple and the products that Apple produces. When they think Apple they see Tim Cook. Remember that Tim also sets on the board of Nike, a company that finds itself in the middle of a great deal of controversy such as child labor violations. As I continue to point out, Tim Cook does not own Apple. He is an employee. In a few days the Chinese will be signing the phase 1 part of trade deal. Great. What will happen China baulks and the threat of tariffs are thrown around again? Will the stock price crash again as last year, all because of Apples dependency on China? And for those that want to have a little better understanding of China, go to The Dungeon and read some of the links concerning the government of China. And yes, philosophically we are all slaves to someone or something. Right now my investment account is a slave to AAPL.
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Post by silkstone on Jan 6, 2020 13:18:03 GMT -8
I think you're using "slave" in the quippy "wage slave" sense. Am I right, Dave? Yes, so many of us are "slaves…" Okay, I understand that everyone here gets tired hearing me beat the drum about Tim Cook and the direction he is taking Apple as I'm tired of beating that drum. Tim Cook has been a great leader of what may be one of the greatest and most influential companies of our lifetime. But I see the danger of some of his decisions that may bite us all in the butt one day. Tim continues to drag Apple into some controversial areas. Areas that can become very polarizing. And as the figurehead of the company he is causing people to take sides on the view of Apple and the products that Apple produces. When they think Apple they see Tim Cook. Remember that Tim also sets on the board of Nike, a company that finds itself in the middle of a great deal of controversy such as child labor violations. As I continue to point out, Tim Cook does not own Apple. He is an employee. In a few days the Chinese will be signing the phase 1 part of trade deal. Great. What will happen China baulks and the threat of tariffs are thrown around again? Will the stock price crash again as last year, all because of Apples dependency on China? And for those that want to have a little better understanding of China, go to The Dungeon and read some of the links concerning the government of China. And yes, philosophically we are all slaves to someone or something. Right now my investment account is a slave to AAPL. If that happens I’ll just blame it on potus since he is a general f-up and likes to use the market as his personal negotiating tool. China is part of the world as are the US and Iran. They have a right to negotiate as they see fit to maintain their own existence. Apple has a plan to use India to lessen its dependence on China, it will take time but it will prolly work. At this point in time, it’s more likely the market will crash from a war in the Middle East which will drive higher oil prices, higher inflation and destabilized world markets.
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benoir
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Post by benoir on Jan 6, 2020 14:02:00 GMT -8
Gervais was hilarious. It was awesome to see narcissistic celebrities who came to have their butts kissed in typical fashion, sit there awkwardly stonefaced while be taken down. I did see Ray Romano laugh. Scorsese laughed at himself. DiCaprio smirked as he thought about all the supermodels he's banged. But most of them looked like they were about to cry and it was great. You can tell a lot about someone by how they react to being made fun of. I could laugh at the Apple stuff too. Whatevs, we all know Apple has policies to address these things. (I thought the SNL Apple sketch a few years ago was funny too). Tim should have smiled through it. Gervais has learned that you never, ever apologize to the outrage mobs. You double down. "I don't care." Good stuff. Gervais made me watch some of the presentation that I otherwise wouldn't have any interest in whatsoever. Now let's get back up past 300. Agree, very funny,... so very funny....but it would be crushing to be on the receiving end, mainly because of the closeness to truth. I have always enjoyed/admired him as an actor even though it is not always comfortable to watch him - I find myself cringing, probably because of the vivisection he is performing on my character as I watch, horrified! As for his comment on Apple, i think it is, honestly, close to the truth. However they are trying to address/improve these issues. Everything (gross generalisation for the point of the argument) that we consume in our cosy first world is likely made is a sweat shop in China in conditions that none of us would tolerate (this is where you now go back to JD’s comment on unions to discuss)
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JDSoCal
Member
Aspiring oligarch
Posts: 4,182
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Post by JDSoCal on Jan 6, 2020 15:25:44 GMT -8
Okay, I understand that everyone here gets tired hearing me beat the drum about Tim Cook and the direction he is taking Apple as I'm tired of beating that drum. Tim Cook has been a great leader of what may be one of the greatest and most influential companies of our lifetime. But I see the danger of some of his decisions that may bite us all in the butt one day. Tim continues to drag Apple into some controversial areas. Areas that can become very polarizing. And as the figurehead of the company he is causing people to take sides on the view of Apple and the products that Apple produces. When they think Apple they see Tim Cook. Remember that Tim also sets on the board of Nike, a company that finds itself in the middle of a great deal of controversy such as child labor violations. As I continue to point out, Tim Cook does not own Apple. He is an employee. In a few days the Chinese will be signing the phase 1 part of trade deal. Great. What will happen China baulks and the threat of tariffs are thrown around again? Will the stock price crash again as last year, all because of Apples dependency on China? And for those that want to have a little better understanding of China, go to The Dungeon and read some of the links concerning the government of China. And yes, philosophically we are all slaves to someone or something. Right now my investment account is a slave to AAPL. If that happens I’ll just blame it on potus since he is a general f-up and likes to use the market as his personal negotiating tool. China is part of the world as are the US and Iran. They have a right to negotiate as they see fit to maintain their own existence. Apple has a plan to use India to lessen its dependence on China, it will take time but it will prolly work. At this point in time, it’s more likely the market will crash from a war in the Middle East which will drive higher oil prices, higher inflation and destabilized world markets. Um, no, there isn't going to be a war in the Middle East. At least not one between the US and Iran.
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Post by deasys on Jan 6, 2020 15:38:10 GMT -8
As for his comment on Apple, i think it is, honestly, close to the truth. However they are trying to address/improve these issues. Everything (gross generalisation for the point of the argument) that we consume in our cosy first world is likely made is a sweat shop in China in conditions that none of us would tolerate Oh, I don't know, benoir. While these are all obviously PR, the things pictured and written about here don't remind me of 19th and 20th century sweatshops at all: www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2019_Progress_Report.pdf (PDF) Is characterizing Apple's supply chain factories as sweatshops fair or even realistic? Can anyone point to actual evidence that would lend believability to such a characterization? (The fabulist known as Mike Daisy created fictions that were thoroughly discredited years ago…)
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benoir
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Post by benoir on Jan 6, 2020 15:57:27 GMT -8
As for his comment on Apple, i think it is, honestly, close to the truth. However they are trying to address/improve these issues. Everything (gross generalisation for the point of the argument) that we consume in our cosy first world is likely made is a sweat shop in China in conditions that none of us would tolerate Oh, I don't know, benoir. While these are all obviously PR, the things pictured and written about here don't remind me of 19th and 20th century sweatshops at all: www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2019_Progress_Report.pdf (PDF) Is characterizing Apple's supply chain factories as sweatshops fair or even realistic? Can anyone point to actual evidence that would lend believability to such a characterization? (The fabulist known as Mike Daisy created fictions that were thoroughly discredited years ago…) I was probably being melodramatic (And it was probably too early for me). Living standards in China have dramatically improved over the past few decades. I am certain that I would not be able to live on an average Chinese wage and I certainly couldn’t spend my existence doing repetitive manual work. Having been to China numerous times you get the sense that it’s a nation in a great transformation - some things good, some things bad. I applaud Apple for it’s great strides across a whole spectrum of areas whilst maintaining profitability.
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bud777
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Post by bud777 on Jan 6, 2020 17:34:47 GMT -8
What a great board! Today is an example of what we can accomplish with self moderation and civility. Cheers to the posters
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JDSoCal
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Aspiring oligarch
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Post by JDSoCal on Jan 6, 2020 17:36:37 GMT -8
Unfortunately, we live in a polarized, binary, short tweet culture in a complex world. There is little time for nuance in our quick, text messaged mobile lives. All too often, we want to score quick points on social media instead of actually seeking the truth. Ironically, the discussion of Apple and Chinese workers a victim of the mobile revolution. The truth about China is, it has enjoyed the fastest wage growth in the history of mankind. Millions of Chinese no longer have to toil in the sun behind oxen and have purposely moved to big cities to work at factories like Foxconn. It's all relative. China is enormous. They have a middle class (400M) as large as the entire US population. But one can't expect them to have first world wages overnight when they are still a developing country. But Chinese wages have gone up over TEN FOLD since 2000. They are even outpacing parts of Europe like Croatia. MUCH faster than the US wage growth through the industrial revolution. We talked about this on AFB years ago, Apple And Foxconn Are The Best Thing That's Ever Happened To Chinese Labour (Fortune, 2012). Message to the worry-warts on Chinese workers: It's all relative. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and don't let your dogma run over your Karma. Apple has made countless people economically better off than they were before: Workers, developers, and of course, stockholders.
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Post by Luckychoices on Jan 6, 2020 21:06:44 GMT -8
Unfortunately, we live in a polarized, binary, short tweet culture in a complex world. There is little time for nuance in our quick, text messaged mobile lives. All too often, we want to score quick points on social media instead of actually seeking the truth. Ironically, the discussion of Apple and Chinese workers is a victim of the mobile revolution. The truth about China is, it has enjoyed the fastest wage growth in the history of mankind. Millions of Chinese no longer have to toil in the sun behind oxen and have purposely moved to big cities to work at factories like Foxconn.It's all relative. China is enormous. They have a middle class (400M) as large as the entire US population. But one can't expect them to have first world wages overnight when they are still a developing country. But Chinese wages have gone up over TEN FOLD since 2000. They are even outpacing parts of Europe like Croatia. MUCH faster than the US wage growth through the industrial revolution. We talked about this on AFB years ago, Apple And Foxconn Are The Best Thing That's Ever Happened To Chinese Labour (Fortune, 2012). Message to the worry-warts on Chinese workers: It's all relative. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and don't let your dogma run over your Karma. Apple has made countless people economically better off than they were before: Workers, developers, and of course, stockholders. *Excellent* comment, JD. However, I'm pretty certain Ricky Gervais, along with a few AFB members, would not agree with your calmly reasoned logic. Nicely Very *perspicuously* stated.
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benoir
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Post by benoir on Jan 6, 2020 21:35:14 GMT -8
Yep, I have to agree with you Lucky, JD’s comment is quite perspicacious, especially his first paragraph. I stand humbly enlightened.....
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Post by Luckychoices on Jan 6, 2020 22:33:26 GMT -8
Yep, I have to agree with you Lucky, JD’s comment is quite perspicacious, especially his first paragraph. I stand humbly enlightened..... Uh, yeah...that's what I *meant* to say, benoir...what *you* said.
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Post by longsince98 on Jan 6, 2020 22:46:21 GMT -8
Hello and happy new year (& holy whee!)
Has anyone else had issues accessing MDN? I’ve not been able to access their site for almost a week.
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Post by aapltini on Jan 7, 2020 9:58:53 GMT -8
I have not had any problems. Sorry.
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