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Post by phoebear611 on May 4, 2013 13:15:16 GMT -8
This is done by virtually any major corporation. Microsoft has done if for years! It's a great strategy - they sell puts and more often than not - augment their cash hoard and rarely get "put" the stock. If I were advising them, I would suggest utilize the option market. Just my opinion. So can companies sell calls ahead of what they believe will be tough times? This is akin to players/managers betting on their team to win. It's better left out entirely rather than having to regulate the betting to assure people aren't betting against themselves. Not sure if they can sell calls but I believe there is a carve out for puts. It's not a bet - you are basically saying that you do not believe your company should be lower than a certain price (X-strike). Perhaps they see value in their stock...I don't see why it's such a bet. Sale of a put is equal to a purchase of stock...at a reduced price (minus premium).
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Post by Red Shirted Ensign on May 4, 2013 13:27:02 GMT -8
I agree with phoebes. For a company that has pledged to go into the market and buy a set amount of shares, as Apple has, this is a very smart and efficient way to do it.
I remember the late 1990s when Microsoft did this. A huge influx of cash from premium income..,the cash management team at Mr. Softy were considered geniuses.
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Post by appledoc on May 4, 2013 13:42:48 GMT -8
The company still has an inherent unfair advantage, even if they are just selling puts or buying calls.
Would you be okay with Amazon selling puts right now if they were about to publicly announce some major streaming media content deal?
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Post by phoebear611 on May 4, 2013 14:27:21 GMT -8
The company still has an inherent unfair advantage, even if they are just selling puts or buying calls. Would you be okay with Amazon selling puts right now if they were about to publicly announce some major streaming media content deal? There are specific rules and time frames associated with this. But to be clear - they are the same rules that apply to just buying back their own stock. You could make the same argument there as well. Just consider it as a buy back - except - the mechanism is different.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2013 14:46:18 GMT -8
The company still has an inherent unfair advantage, even if they are just selling puts or buying calls. What advantage do they have? They have to announce any share buyback, before implementing the plan. Investors are then well aware of the Company's intent. Being aware of the strategies that can be used to accomplish the plan, the investor can take advantage of the Company's intent. I consider myself an informed investor, but wasn't fully cognizant of the ramifications of a Put selling strategy, until it was brought up here, and written about on Barron's. This last point is that an investor doesn't have to be ignorant. The resources are readily available if you want to be informed. OK, I've finished my rant/cool down period. Back to hand rubbing a Turtle wax finish onto a 1946 Packard Custom Super Clipper Limousine. God, you never fully appreciate how big (26" longer than a BMW 7 Series Sedan [148" vs 122"]) these things are until you do that.
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Post by appledoc on May 4, 2013 14:50:18 GMT -8
Do you have them or know where I can find them? I'd be curious to see what companies can and cannot do.
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Post by appledoc on May 4, 2013 14:53:08 GMT -8
The company still has an inherent unfair advantage, even if they are just selling puts or buying calls. What advantage do they have? They have to announce any share buyback, before implementing the plan. Investors are then well aware of the Company's intent. Being aware of the strategies that can be used to accomplish the plan, the investor can take advantage of the Company's intent. I consider myself an informed investor, but wasn't fully cognizant of the ramifications of a Put selling strategy, until it was brought up here, and written about on Barron's. This last point is that an investor doesn't have to be ignorant. The resources are readily available if you want to be informed. OK, I've finished my rant/cool down period. Back to hand rubbing a Turtle wax finish onto a 1946 Packard Limousine. God, you never fully appreciate how big these things are until you do that. What advantage don't they have? You don't think Apple doesn't have somewhat of a clue what's going to be released over the course of the next year? I don't have access to that. I don't have access to the progress in a China mobile deal or media content deal for the iTV either.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2013 14:58:39 GMT -8
What advantage do they have? They have to announce any share buyback, before implementing the plan. Investors are then well aware of the Company's intent. Being aware of the strategies that can be used to accomplish the plan, the investor can take advantage of the Company's intent. I consider myself an informed investor, but wasn't fully cognizant of the ramifications of a Put selling strategy, until it was brought up here, and written about on Barron's. This last point is that an investor doesn't have to be ignorant. The resources are readily available if you want to be informed. OK, I've finished my rant/cool down period. Back to hand rubbing a Turtle wax finish onto a 1946 Packard Limousine. God, you never fully appreciate how big these things are until you do that. What advantage don't they have? You don't think Apple doesn't have somewhat of a clue what's going to be released over the course of the next year? I don't have access to that. I don't have access to the progress in a China mobile deal or media content deal for the iTV either. Do you really need to know that, to make an informed decision based on what you do know about Apple's history and prospects, coupled with the public knowledge that management is engaging in the largest stock buyback in history?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2013 16:22:56 GMT -8
well, completed the wax job on the Packard. My arms will never be the same.
The driver showed up 10 minutes early (I like that), I patted the ol' girl on the rear fender and sent her off for a night of Prom escapades.
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Post by Red Shirted Ensign on May 4, 2013 16:42:53 GMT -8
well, completed the wax job on the Packard. My arms will never be the same. The driver showed up 10 minutes early (I like that), I patted the ol' girl on the rear fender and sent her off for a night of Prom escapades. I found Mercel and Max's prom photos....ah, memories....
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2013 17:01:53 GMT -8
The company still has an inherent unfair advantage, even if they are just selling puts or buying calls. Would you be okay with Amazon selling puts right now if they were about to publicly announce some major streaming media content deal? I'm unsure as to whom you are implying this is unfair to? If you are implying that it is unfair to those that are betting negatively on Apple by shorting Common or buying puts, then...WHY WOULD I CARE ABOUT THEM? I'm invested in Apple because I believe it will do well and want it to do well. If apple can profit from those betting against its stock price because it knows more about its future business prospects than anyone else, then I'm all for it. Whoever is shorting apple and is complaining that Apple Management knows more about Apples business than they do deserve to go bankrupt. If you are in the business of shorting a stock or buying puts, you should do so with the knowledge you always know less than company management, and be prepared for surprises. And yes, I have no problem with your example of Amazon selling puts ahead of a positive announcement, especially as there is no guarantee the stock price will appreciate.
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Post by mace on May 4, 2013 17:19:23 GMT -8
If I'm Goldman Sachs or Blackstone, would sell ATM puts once I got wind of the dividend/buyback package. Easy money.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2013 17:50:57 GMT -8
OK, I've finished my rant/cool down period. Back to hand rubbing a Turtle wax finish onto a 1946 Packard Custom Super Clipper Limousine. God, you never fully appreciate how big (26" longer than a BMW 7 Series Sedan [148" vs 122"]) these things are until you do that. Did you chop the BMW 7 series into a two seater? This model has been around 200" for quite some time.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2013 17:52:16 GMT -8
I found Mercel and Max's prom photos....ah, memories.... Under that hat is a full head of hair... ;D I was able to find an undated, younger pic of Red. Good times...
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Post by Red Shirted Ensign on May 4, 2013 19:55:56 GMT -8
That must be why my first four wives just up and left. Hmmm
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Post by sponge on May 4, 2013 20:16:29 GMT -8
I found Mercel and Max's prom photos....ah, memories.... Under that hat is a full head of hair... ;D I was able to find an undated, younger pic of Red. Good times... I think the anti biotics got to your brain and triggered the comic genes. LOL
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Post by Mav on May 4, 2013 20:19:04 GMT -8
Mercel, they DID make a Murano into a convertible...
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Post by nathanstevens on May 4, 2013 22:19:57 GMT -8
If you are implying that it is unfair to those that are betting negatively on Apple by shorting Common or buying puts, then...WHY WOULD I CARE ABOUT THEM? I'm invested in Apple because I believe it will do well and want it to do well. If apple can profit from those betting against its stock price because it knows more about its future business prospects than anyone else, then I'm all for it. Whoever is shorting apple and is complaining that Apple Management knows more about Apples business than they do deserve to go bankrupt. If you are in the business of shorting a stock or buying puts, you should do so with the knowledge you always know less than company management, and be prepared for surprises. Fully agree.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2013 23:25:42 GMT -8
Did you chop the BMW 7 series into a two seater? This model has been around 200" for quite some time. Per BMW spec sheet Series 7 wheelbase is 122".
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Post by appledoc on May 5, 2013 0:18:38 GMT -8
The company still has an inherent unfair advantage, even if they are just selling puts or buying calls. Would you be okay with Amazon selling puts right now if they were about to publicly announce some major streaming media content deal? I'm unsure as to whom you are implying this is unfair to? If you are implying that it is unfair to those that are betting negatively on Apple by shorting Common or buying puts, then...WHY WOULD I CARE ABOUT THEM? I'm invested in Apple because I believe it will do well and want it to do well. If apple can profit from those betting against its stock price because it knows more about its future business prospects than anyone else, then I'm all for it. Whoever is shorting apple and is complaining that Apple Management knows more about Apples business than they do deserve to go bankrupt. If you are in the business of shorting a stock or buying puts, you should do so with the knowledge you always know less than company management, and be prepared for surprises. And yes, I have no problem with your example of Amazon selling puts ahead of a positive announcement, especially as there is no guarantee the stock price will appreciate. This wasn't meant to be an Apple-specific issue. But given your last line, that's entirely fair then. Just differing opinions. I would still like to see some rules regarding options. I'm running the Pittsburgh marathon this morning. I think the course may crush me.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2013 2:06:00 GMT -8
Did you chop the BMW 7 series into a two seater? This model has been around 200" for quite some time. Per BMW spec sheet Series 7 wheelbase is 122". My bad, as you were making the point about vehicle size and I read it too quickly as length. Being the car guy you are, do you also reference track instead of width? I used to own a 1962 Caddy Coupe de Ville for grins, and that car should have articulated corners like a long bus. But I'll stop there as this is getting close to car talk...
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2013 2:12:21 GMT -8
I think the anti biotics got to your brain and triggered the comic genes. LOL Glad you liked the Ray Charles pic. ;D
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Post by phoebear611 on May 5, 2013 2:40:40 GMT -8
Hey Doc - good luck on the marathon - I hope you crush it (and it doesn't crush you)! Hopefully you had a nice dish of pasta yesterday
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Post by rob_london on May 5, 2013 6:31:45 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2013 6:35:30 GMT -8
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Post by Red Shirted Ensign on May 5, 2013 6:41:55 GMT -8
Acer says there is "no value" in making a windows RT tablet.... www.citeworld.com/tablets/21824/acer-windows-rt-no-valueIf Acer can't find value, who could..... "The market for Windows 8 is settling down after a rough start, Wong said. The launch was not ideal and the Surface tablet created some distraction, but Microsoft is now doing a good job of supporting its partners and explaining the touch-usage model to customers, Wong said."
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2013 6:47:20 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2013 6:53:14 GMT -8
Acer says there is "no value" in making a windows RT tablet.... www.citeworld.com/tablets/21824/acer-windows-rt-no-valueIf Acer can't find value, who could..... "The market for Windows 8 is settling down after a rough start, Wong said. The launch was not ideal and the Surface tablet created some distraction, but Microsoft is now doing a good job of supporting its partners and explaining the touch-usage model to customers, Wong said." The more likely scenario is that Win RT will be allowed to wither and die. Acer and others will work to put Win 8 Pro (with Metro option) on convertibles and tablets. Surface RT will join Zune within the next year, if not sooner. Why the extra time? Softie is rumored try once more with a 7-8" "mini" Surface. It's not going to work.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2013 7:01:32 GMT -8
For those who don't speak german, there's a link at the lower right of the main picture to click. "Weitere Fotos" Apple goes first class (as usual) on the tables and chairs -- I've never seen Eames chairs before inside an Apple store btw. They're about 3-4k per chair.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2013 7:27:48 GMT -8
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