Since84
Moderator
To infinity and beyond!
Posts: 3,933
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Post by Since84 on Feb 17, 2016 3:22:32 GMT -8
Good morning everyone. Nikkei and HSI are RED. Europe and the US are GREEN. AAPL is GREEN trading at 96.89 +0.25 (0.26%). Still waiting for launch. Interestingly, this morning Max Pain is $102 for this week. In the news: Apple Chief Calls Court Order to Unlock iPhone ‘Unprecedented Step’. Stories at NYT, Reuters, AppleInsider, USA Today, Fortune and many others. Thanks Tim. Have a great day. Let's make money.
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Post by artman1033 on Feb 17, 2016 6:54:32 GMT -8
Good morning everyone. Nikkei and HSI are RED. Europe and the US are GREEN. AAPL is GREEN trading at 96.89 +0.25 (0.26%). Still waiting for launch. Interestingly, this morning Max Pain is $102 for this week. In the news: Apple Chief Calls Court Order to Unlock iPhone ‘Unprecedented Step’. Stories at NYT, Reuters, AppleInsider, USA Today, Fortune and many others. Thanks Tim. Have a great day. Let's make money. www.apple.com/customer-letter/
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Post by mrentropy on Feb 17, 2016 7:10:41 GMT -8
Getting over 97.40 Will get us out of this range. Would be nice if it broke out and picked up some momentum. Up market seems to be outweighing Icahn's 13F filing, so maybe there is hope
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Post by rezonate on Feb 17, 2016 7:56:24 GMT -8
Love the Apple letter. Precisely why I have been on the Apple train since 1984.
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Post by nagrani on Feb 17, 2016 9:04:04 GMT -8
I wish Tim would write a letter to shareholders defending the "hacking" that's going on with apples stock on a day to basis
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Post by rickag on Feb 17, 2016 9:44:42 GMT -8
Love the Apple letter. Precisely why I have been on the Apple train since 1984. +1 I would bet Tim would be willing to go to jail over this.
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Since84
Moderator
To infinity and beyond!
Posts: 3,933
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Post by Since84 on Feb 17, 2016 10:01:08 GMT -8
Another UP day with AAPL trailing the market. This is getting old...
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Post by mrentropy on Feb 17, 2016 10:11:34 GMT -8
Another UP day with AAPL trailing the market. This is getting old... We trailed the market in the morning yesterday and led in the afternoon.
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Post by Apple II+ on Feb 17, 2016 12:40:55 GMT -8
Love the Apple letter. Precisely why I have been on the Apple train since 1984. If the stock were down or flat on this market up day, surely people would blame it on the court ruling. Since AAPL is up with the market, is that an indication that the market also loves the letter or that the court ruling will not affect Apple's business?
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Post by The Big Toe on Feb 17, 2016 13:18:44 GMT -8
Love the Apple letter. Precisely why I have been on the Apple train since 1984. If the stock were down or flat on this market up day, surely people would blame it on the court ruling. Since AAPL is up with the market, is that an indication that the market also loves the letter or that the court ruling will not affect Apple's business? The court ruling will have zero effect upon AAPL. It is not like only Apple would have to conform to having a back door hack for the gov't. My bigger concern is Uncle Carl (soon to be Deadbeat Uncle Carl if he keeps selling) unwinding his AAPL holdings to buy something with more growth potential.
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Post by phoebear611 on Feb 17, 2016 14:13:06 GMT -8
Will one of you brainiacs please explain to me in plain English why Apple couldn't take the phone the government has in question - print out on paper all they need (so hand them a hard copy) and then destroy whatever they created to hack into the system? Clearly I am missing something here since I don't understand why this is not an option. As much as I love my privacy, if someone told me that my child was in a place where a terrorist act was going to occur within the next several days but that the information was on an iPhone - I know I wouldn't be rallying around TC like I am now about privacy. There MUST be a way to get this information for "National Security" reasons or potential future threats without compromising every other phone. And please don't respond with that the government would say it was ALL for "National Security" - that's a lame answer. Is my idea (above) incorrect / impossible / nonsensical? Would love to hear the thoughts of anyone who is well versed in this area. TIA
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Post by dreamRaj on Feb 17, 2016 14:25:28 GMT -8
Instead of making this a national issue, Apple should've treated it as an exception (it really is) and helped unlock the terrorist's iPhone. So much media attention and debate over this could lead to bad PR.
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Post by artman1033 on Feb 17, 2016 14:34:28 GMT -8
Instead of making this a national issue, Apple should've treated it as an exception (it really is) and helped unlock the terrorist's iPhone. So much media attention and debate over this could lead to bad PR. The iPhone in question was issued to the husband by the county. WHY does the FBI need this information? This is the same FBI that turned the Islamic Terrorists home over to reporters after 24 hours... LOOKs like politics to me.... GIVE them nothing MR. COOK.
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Post by ericinaustin on Feb 17, 2016 14:46:31 GMT -8
Instead of making this a national issue, Apple should've treated it as an exception (it really is) and helped unlock the terrorist's iPhone. So much media attention and debate over this could lead to bad PR. I completely disagree. This is a bedrock principle for Apple . I highly suspect that they will go to the matt on this. They sell this phone and iOS around the world. They cannot make an exception for the us and not for the rest of the world. That means Russia, China, N. Korea etc. etc. They fold here there is no longer the ability to argue data is safe anywhere. This is the best way to defend keeping data safe. No exceptions. You show me one terrorist whose actions are helped by encryption and I'll show you a hundred thousand people with secure personal and financial data and governments that have better security for our own intel. It's a trade off we should ALL defend. A person willing to give up a "little" freedom for a bit more security deserves neither.
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Post by incorrigible on Feb 17, 2016 14:53:22 GMT -8
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Post by Red Shirted Ensign on Feb 17, 2016 15:02:13 GMT -8
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Post by phoebear611 on Feb 17, 2016 15:30:06 GMT -8
Thanks Red - much clearer to me now. Again, we will all have different opinions on what TC should do here. The one thing that gnaws at me is the notion that even if AAPL keeps whatever they need to help FBI unlock the phone by allowing the content to not be erased - there seems to be this notion that the "key" (so to speak) would be stolen....how? why? If TC has it and then self destructs the entire project without handing it over to the FBI ... how would it be stolen? This really is a moral dilemma in so many ways. All I know is that I had strong opinions about certain things in life and then when I subsequently found myself in a certain position - I suddenly had a change of heart or, at a minimum, realized the validity of the opposing argument. Again, if a phone held the key to the next terrorist act and your child was killed in that following attack because AAPL wouldn't succumb in some way to providing the key to a solution .... I refuse to believe that you would know how you would react - or which side of the argument you would consider valid. This is immensely difficult but I'm glad that it's TC dealing with it and pray there could be some potential solution that would be specific. For God's sake - they have enormous brains over there - surely someone can come up with a creative uncompromising solution! ugh
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Post by CdnPhoto on Feb 17, 2016 15:46:00 GMT -8
Thanks Red - much clearer to me now. Again, we will all have different opinions on what TC should do here. The one thing that gnaws at me is the notion that even if AAPL keeps whatever they need to help FBI unlock the phone by allowing the content to not be erased - there seems to be this notion that the "key" (so to speak) would be stolen....how? why? If TC has it and then self destructs the entire project without handing it over to the FBI ... how would it be stolen? This really is a moral dilemma in so many ways. All I know is that I had strong opinions about certain things in life and then when I subsequently found myself in a certain position - I suddenly had a change of heart or, at a minimum, realized the validity of the opposing argument. Again, if a phone held the key to the next terrorist act and your child was killed in that following attack because AAPL wouldn't succumb in some way to providing the key to a solution .... I refuse to believe that you would know how you would react - or which side of the argument you would consider valid. This is immensely difficult but I'm glad that it's TC dealing with it and pray there could be some potential solution that would be specific. For God's sake - they have enormous brains over there - surely someone can come up with a creative uncompromising solution! ugh From my understanding, Apple doesn't have a "key" to give. The encryption code is made up of multiple parts, making it impossible for Apple to have all the parts. What the FBI is asking is for Apple to make it easier to brute-force the cracking of the 4 digit code used to open the phone. If Apple had a back door, the law enforcement isn't the big threat. The threat would be all the other bad players out there. With a back door, there is no way to limit who has access. If you can find the door and can figure out the secret knock, you get in. Can you imagine a Fortune 100 CEO having his phone stolen and being cracked by a foreign competitor so they can know the trade secrets, or up coming deals that the company is working on? As much as it would be great to help the law enforcement, it is not possible without weakening the security/privacy all users have.
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bud777
fire starter
Posts: 1,352
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Post by bud777 on Feb 17, 2016 16:32:46 GMT -8
I have to admit that I don't really understand this either. It seems like there are two questions. First does the government have a right to see the data on the phone and second, if they do, how can you allow that so only authorized people have that access?
The first question seems to me to be answered with our subpoena laws. Get a court order and you get to see the data. Just like a computer or a safe deposit box.
The second part seems equally solvable. Let say that you are using double key encryption with 128 bit keys. Potentially uncrackable. I think most encryption might use 3 56 bit keys, but the idea is the same. Now suppose that Apple provides a function that takes a very specific 128 bit password as an argument and returns the passcode. Hell, it could display it or just unlock the phone, doesn't matter. anyone trying to use the function has to guess the 128 bit argument. If they had the means to do that, they would have the means to circumvent the double key encryption, so you are not compromising security. But they won't. The fact that the systems are secure is proof of that. There are ways to make it even more secure, like changing the password each time it is used through an update.
Tthe government gets a subpoena, Apple gives them the 128 bit password, and data is available. This doesn't seem that hard, so obviously, I have missed something crucial. I once got an award for always having an answer that was quick, plausible, and wrong.
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Post by rickag on Feb 17, 2016 16:33:42 GMT -8
Thanks Red - much clearer to me now. Again, we will all have different opinions on what TC should do here. The one thing that gnaws at me is the notion that even if AAPL keeps whatever they need to help FBI unlock the phone by allowing the content to not be erased - there seems to be this notion that the "key" (so to speak) would be stolen....how? why? If TC has it and then self destructs the entire project without handing it over to the FBI ... how would it be stolen? This really is a moral dilemma in so many ways. All I know is that I had strong opinions about certain things in life and then when I subsequently found myself in a certain position - I suddenly had a change of heart or, at a minimum, realized the validity of the opposing argument. Again, if a phone held the key to the next terrorist act and your child was killed in that following attack because AAPL wouldn't succumb in some way to providing the key to a solution .... I refuse to believe that you would know how you would react - or which side of the argument you would consider valid. This is immensely difficult but I'm glad that it's TC dealing with it and pray there could be some potential solution that would be specific. For God's sake - they have enormous brains over there - surely someone can come up with a creative uncompromising solution! ugh From my understanding, Apple doesn't have a "key" to give. The encryption code is made up of multiple parts, making it impossible for Apple to have all the parts. What the FBI is asking is for Apple to make it easier to brute-force the cracking of the 4 digit code used to open the phone. If Apple had a back door, the law enforcement isn't the big threat. The threat would be all the other bad players out there. With a back door, there is no way to limit who has access. If you can find the door and can figure out the secret knock, you get in. Can you imagine a Fortune 100 CEO having his phone stolen and being cracked by a foreign competitor so they can know the trade secrets, or up coming deals that the company is working on? As much as it would be great to help the law enforcement, it is not possible without weakening the security/privacy all users have. I beg to differ on your statement,"If Apple had a back door, the law enforcement isn't the big threat. ". They are the biggest threat, remember reading about McCarthyism? Remember the IRS targeting nonprofit organizations with the word "Constitution" in them. Remember the NSA snooping. All these examples were "good" intentioned except the IRS SCANDAL, until they're not. This is not a slippery slope at all. This issue about privacy is the most important issue this county has faced since slavery in my mind. To some I probably come off sounding like I come from the tin foil hat society, but there is a very important reason our founding fathers held dear to the principle to the right to privacy and it is even more important today than in any time in this countriy's history with the digital age. our Federal Government and State Governments are large and powerful. They are the largest employers and could easily abuse their access to private information beyond any terrorist. Beyond anything else to provide security we need to protect our Comstitutional rights for the protection generations to come. This brings to mind a discussion I had with my father, retired Colonel after 33 years in the Air Force. Not directly related,but shows the beauty of our Constitution. During the Koean War, many pilots violated the 38th Parallel shot down Migs taking off or destroyed them on the ground, he refused. I questioned him saying they were the enemy. His response was, the President a civilian was commander in chief and he and the government set the boundaries. Right or wrong a civilian and civilian government set those boundaries. The military command is taught to follow and respect those boundaries. Why, because our foundry fathers understood separation of power and did not the want the military to seize control. The separation of the state's power to invade our privacy is just as important. Time to get off my soapbox and go pick up Chipotle and die from food poisoning.
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Post by ericinaustin on Feb 17, 2016 17:10:38 GMT -8
Simple question. Can the iOS be updated on a locked iPhone? If so, then the iPhone has a built in back door that is controlled by AAPL. It cannot. You must approve the update.
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Post by tuffett on Feb 17, 2016 17:39:07 GMT -8
Instead of making this a national issue, Apple should've treated it as an exception (it really is) and helped unlock the terrorist's iPhone. So much media attention and debate over this could lead to bad PR. I think it's overwhelmingly good PR, among people who are or will potentially be Apple consumers. This fiasco is proving two very clear things in the minds of many people: 1) The iPhone is so secure that the FBI cannot hack it 2) Apple is standing up against the government to fight for everyone's privacy The people who would view Apple negatively over this issue are by and large morons (e.g. Trump supporters) and generally are more poorly educated and lower income and not Apple's target consumer. Harsh but generally true.
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Post by Apple II+ on Feb 17, 2016 17:46:38 GMT -8
He says "Starting with iOS 8 all of the data on an iPhone is encrypted on disk with extremely strong encryption. The FBI could extract the data directly from the memory chips but it would take years to brute force the key (i.e. try every possible combination) In the case of the terrorist’s phone (an iPhone 5C) the key is generated from a combination of the user-created passcode and a key that is unique to the device (this key is embedded when the phone is manufactured). Thus, while a passcode is massively easier to brute force than the on-disk encryption, said brute forcing can only be done on the device itself" Suppose the feds extract the data on the chips, focus on extracting the key unique to the device, use those to make a duplicate of this iPhone in an emulator, and use that to brute force the passcode. Not do-able because ... it's impossible to extract the device key? ... some other reason?
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Post by Apple II+ on Feb 17, 2016 18:08:06 GMT -8
He says "Starting with iOS 8 all of the data on an iPhone is encrypted on disk with extremely strong encryption. The FBI could extract the data directly from the memory chips but it would take years to brute force the key (i.e. try every possible combination) In the case of the terrorist’s phone (an iPhone 5C) the key is generated from a combination of the user-created passcode and a key that is unique to the device (this key is embedded when the phone is manufactured). Thus, while a passcode is massively easier to brute force than the on-disk encryption, said brute forcing can only be done on the device itself" Suppose the feds extract the data on the chips, focus on extracting the key unique to the device, use those to make a duplicate of this iPhone in an emulator, and use that to brute force the passcode. Not do-able because ... it's impossible to extract the device key? ... some other reason? I think I answered my own question. From Apple's iOS security whitepaper: "The device’s unique ID (UID) and a device group ID (GID) are AES 256-bit keys fused (UID) or compiled (GID) into the application processor and Secure Enclave during manufacturing. No software or rmware can read them directly; they can see only the results of encryption or decryption operations performed by dedicated AES engines implemented in silicon using the UID or GID as a key."
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Post by appledoc on Feb 17, 2016 18:46:54 GMT -8
Instead of making this a national issue, Apple should've treated it as an exception (it really is) and helped unlock the terrorist's iPhone. So much media attention and debate over this could lead to bad PR. You fail to understand what is at hand here. Creating a backdoor to the iPhone opens up Pandora's box. There is no fairy tale where Tim Cook creates the magic key, allows the FBI to use it at Apple's headquarters, and then destroys it immediately after. You have no guarantee as to what happens to that backdoor access after creation. Establishing the precedence that this is an acceptable tactic allows not only our government to come back again and again, but foreign governments to do the same. Where does the line get drawn? I have an iPhone. You can access every bit of personal information attributable to me through my iPhone. You can steal my credit cards, take over my bank accounts, steal my SSN, disable my home security, etc. all through my iPhone. I'm some nobody though. Maybe you're not though. Are you ready to risk losing your identity to allow the FBI to look at one terrorist's phone?
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Post by zzmac on Feb 17, 2016 20:00:31 GMT -8
There's no back door according to Apple, so they should milk this. This is a great marketing opportunity for Apple.
On another note, what is with the complaints of the loud noises coming from where they're testing their car. Aren't electric cars quiet? Maybe they're building a V8 Apple Cobra.
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JDSoCal
Member
Aspiring oligarch
Posts: 4,183
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Post by JDSoCal on Feb 17, 2016 21:04:21 GMT -8
Of course, as a Libertarian, I support Cook 100%. Also, as a stockholder, I think erring on the side of protecting customers over government is a winner. Remember that the NSA doesn't bother with warrants, so if the backdoor exists, they are coming through it without knocking. And so are the Chinese.
For the "I have nothing to hide" crowd, privacy is a value in itself. The Fourth Amendment is unique in that it was intended to protect innocent people from having their persons, houses, papers, and effects ransacked without good cause (I'd also suggest that every single person has something they'd like to keep private). The other criminal procedure protections, 5, 6, and 8, contemplate the rights of actual defendants or convicts. But 4 protects everyone, even those not even remotely suspected of any crime.
One thing the media isn't mentioning that I wish someone at Apple would: The bozos at the State Department actually have a policy where they prohibit their agents looking at visa applicants' (foreign nationals living abroad with no US constitutional rights) social media posts. The jihadists in question had a wide open Facebook profile that encouraged Islamic terror. The feds couldn't look at that, but they want a backdoor to everyone's iPhones?
Fuck them.
Interesting times we live in.
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Post by artman1033 on Feb 18, 2016 2:13:01 GMT -8
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Post by artman1033 on Feb 18, 2016 3:16:32 GMT -8
GOOGLE's official response in 5 tweets:
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Post by macster on Feb 18, 2016 3:44:05 GMT -8
Instead of making this a national issue, Apple should've treated it as an exception (it really is) and helped unlock the terrorist's iPhone. So much media attention and debate over this could lead to bad PR. I think it's overwhelmingly good PR, among people who are or will potentially be Apple consumers. This fiasco is proving two very clear things in the minds of many people: 1) The iPhone is so secure that the FBI cannot hack it 2) Apple is standing up against the government to fight for everyone's privacy The people who would view Apple negatively over this issue are by and large morons (e.g. Trump supporters) and generally are more poorly educated and lower income and not Apple's target consumer. Harsh but generally true. To respond to your last paragraph Tuffet, that can very well be associated to Obama supporters but I get the gist of your point. Trump should very well be capable of leading this country with the experience he has over what the clown in the White House has had IMO. But Trump simply has a big mouth and doesn't think thoughtfully and will ultimately bring him down. How stupid is that. Personally, while I think Kasich has no charisma, he does have experience and a knack to unite the country.
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