4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,867
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Post by 4aapl on Apr 24, 2022 20:00:29 GMT -8
It's been an exciting weekend! Not only did my family get away for the weekend to the city of trees, along with apparently a dance competition and a full metropolitan area of Senior Balls, but I got bombarded with emails about people feeling the moderator's moderation attempts were just not up to what some people think the moderator's moderation attempts should be. For those that missed a few days of drama, on Thursday JD posted something that included a remark about that there will be great political change in 7 months. I reminded him to keep politics out of it, and he said he wouldn't censor himself. Some people took that as him saying FU to moderators in general and me in specific, and posted such. Personally I took it as an affirmation of his understanding the rules, and that he wouldn't be surprised if further efforts along that line caused his posts to disappear or even his privileges being taken away. Fun times! (EDIT: aaplfinance.proboards.com/thread/3406/thursday-april-21-2022-166?page=1&scrollTo=127411 ) FWIW, the times that I get in trouble for my actions in other places in life is often when I am trying to back up someone else's rules. The escalation just gets mixed up, without taking into account proper leveling and interpretation. Done with the backstory, we can get to the point. We've had nearly a decade here, mostly with little and sometimes no moderation, while we've mostly hit a good happy medium of staying on topic. But, some feel anything should be allowed, since Apple is such a huge company now that really anything is on topic. The opposite direction is that the board should stay strictly on topic, and any post or poster with a scent of off-topicness should be immediately dealt with from our slew of moderators that have nothing better in life to do than to stand by the big red button. If either of those descriptions really matched your desires exactly or set you off, please reevaluate your life choices. I take more of a moderate view, thinking that if I hit 66 mph in a 65 zone once in a while, accidentally or not, while not 100% by the book I shouldn't loose my driver's license. That said, if the board as a whole really wants to run in a direction that I don't feel I can be a moderator, I am happy to step aside and let the other moderators continue to take their best shot. Let's get this poll going. Drumroll please
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Post by Luckychoices on Apr 24, 2022 22:17:50 GMT -8
For those that missed a few days of drama, on Thursday JD posted something that included a remark about that there will be great political change in 7 months. I reminded him to keep politics out of it, and he said he wouldn't censor himself. Some people took that as him saying FU to moderators in general and me in specific, and posted such. It's only my opinion, of course, but I believe most English speakers would indicate that if one states, as you did, “If you have to cross out words to be cute, while knowing they shouldn't be here, just leave them out.” and receive the reply, “I don't censor myself, and have no intention of doing so”...that your request has been succinctly and directly rejected. I posted a response to JD's reply because I felt that you were very diplomatic in your request and were just encouraging the same behavior that you've encouraged for months. Personally I took it as an affirmation of his understanding the rules, and that he wouldn't be surprised if further efforts along that line caused his posts to disappear or even his privileges being taken away. Really? You took JD saying, "“I don't censor myself, and have no intention of doing so” as meaning he understood the rules? And when he added, "Does Elon Musk have to buy Proboards too?!"...that wasn't an indication that he thought you were stifling free speech? FWIW, the times that I get in trouble for my actions in other places in life is often when I am trying to back up someone else's rules. I'm sorry...hasn't it already been shown over the last few years that allowing political commentary on the Apple Financial Board just causes dissension, arguments and name-calling? The escalation just gets mixed up, without taking into account proper leveling and interpretation. No idea what you're referring to here. Done with the backstory, we can get to the point. We've had nearly a decade here, mostly with little and sometimes no moderation, while we've mostly hit a good happy medium of staying on topic. But, some feel anything should be allowed, since Apple is such a huge company now that really anything is on topic. The opposite direction is that the board should stay strictly on topic, and any post or poster with a scent of off-topicness should be immediately dealt with from our slew of moderators that have nothing better in life to do than to stand by the big red button.Please...no one is suggesting that anyone "stand by the big red button". But it's embarrassing that some adults can't follow a few simple guidelines. And losing posting privileges for a week, two weeks or a month seems fair to me as a helpful reminder to folks who forget those guidelines. If either of those descriptions really matched your desires exactly or set you off, please reevaluate your life choices. Yes, everyone understands, you're not at all disturbed by someone telling you they won't follow the rules. I take more of a moderate view, thinking that if I hit 66 mph in a 65 zone once in a while, accidentally or not, while not 100% by the book I shouldn't loose my driver's license. Once again...please. I started a thread called, "Coronavirus *Information/Update* Thread - No Politics" to allow interested members to provide information about a virus that's claimed close to one million American lives in two years. I emphasized "No Politics" in the thread title because I didn't want a political fight, I wanted information. I started the thread on May 18, 2020 and many members, including you, posted to it many times over the next year or so. After 12 pages of posts, a few members starting posting political items to it and, instead of them losing posting privileges for a week or two, you shut down the thread completely on 08/24/21. So you were willing to trash the entire resource rather than force the 2-3 individuals to quit posting political commentary. That said, if the board as a whole really wants to run in a direction that I don't feel I can be a moderator, I am happy to step aside and let the other moderators continue to take their best shot. Perhaps it would be good for you to let the other moderators "take their best shot" for the next month and see how that goes.
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Post by hledgard on Apr 25, 2022 5:10:28 GMT -8
I think JD's post are the best on the board. I know he can get political some, but his political points mostly do impact on AAPL. His writing is clever and creative, and fun to read. And he does not go on and on as regards political issues. Really, he gives this board life ! !
"I'd like a little more leniency. More of AAPL/Apple is about politics these days." That's me.
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mark
fire starter
Posts: 1,631
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Post by mark on Apr 25, 2022 5:27:24 GMT -8
This one was such a mild political interjection, and was more cute than inflammatory. If anyone other than JD had posted it, it would have gone entirely unnoticed. And it should go unnoticed in all cases. We all know that he leans right, and there's nothing wrong with tiny interjections like that ... just like the small interjections by those who lean left when Apple does something perceived to be "left leaning". It shouldn't be a big deal.
The only thing worse for a board than excessive mild political discussion, is excessive discussions about the discussions (meta-discussion?). I've been on message boards since the beginning with usenet boards, and that is a general rule that applies to all boards, all topics, everywhere, and at all times (so far).
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Post by laf on Apr 25, 2022 5:28:12 GMT -8
I appreciate that the moderators have a difficult job to do (even great posters like lucky get perturbed by moderation actions) and I very much appreciate being able to read all the contributions to the board. Personally i think the rule should be that you cannot respond to political statements. After all most political postings (sadly,childishly, pathetically) are meant to get a rise out of the opposite camp.
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4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,867
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Post by 4aapl on Apr 25, 2022 6:20:10 GMT -8
This one was such a mild political interjection, and was more cute than inflammatory. If anyone other than JD had posted it, it would have gone entirely unnoticed. And it should go unnoticed in all cases. We all know that he leans right, and there's nothing wrong with tiny interjections like that ... just like the small interjections by those who lean left when Apple does something perceived to be "left leaning". It shouldn't be a big deal. The only thing worse for a board than excessive mild political discussion, is excessive discussions about the discussions (meta-discussion?). Micromanaging would be worse, such as worrying if PED had something political in a article's name that someone choose to link to, something in the article, something in his short quip about it, or something in the comments on his page. If hyper vigilant, the list goes on and on. Thank you everyone who has already voted. The poll is set to auto-close at 6am tomorrow, but given timezones just get your vote in today. Log in if you haven't in a while, or even create an account. 5 of the 16 (updated) that have voted so far I rarely or never see. While I hope these members choose to post a little more, it's great to get votes from the whole user base and not just from the people that post the most, especially while as many as 90% of our viewers don't have accounts or don't regularly log in. So far it looks like the moderators have done an ok job as of late, and even been a little too vigilant. It's good to get the vote in, rather than just relying on emails and posts from a few. Keep the votes coming, including for those that have emailed and posted about this recently but have yet to vote. Thanks
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chinacat
Moderator
AAPL Long since 2006
Posts: 4,438
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Post by chinacat on Apr 25, 2022 7:22:42 GMT -8
I think that there is something missing from the poll. I don’t care about any of JD’s political remarks. My problem is with his nasty personal shots at other members who happen to disagree with him. This board has done a good job of maintaining a generally reasonable, if sometimes combative, tone of discussion. JD, however is often abusive of those who disagree with him, and sometimes profanely so, even when the topic is not really “political”.
So I don’t really know how to vote, but put me down for curbing JD’s anti-social, abusive and profane remarks about other board members. However, it is clear that the chief moderator is just fine with JD’s hateful rhetoric, so my expectation is that this forum will soon become unbearable for me and perhaps for others who desire informed, respectful discussion and socially effective moderation. Thanks for the memories, anyway.
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Ted
fire starter
Posts: 892
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Post by Ted on Apr 25, 2022 7:42:29 GMT -8
I can't find an option to click in this poll. The board doesn't have a general problem with politics or moderation over the last two months. The issue for me is specifically about JD and his apparent need to fill the role of board political troll. I'd prefer to keep reading his often insightful posts, but his inability to self-moderate prevents that. If others are unoffended, so be it.
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4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,867
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Post by 4aapl on Apr 25, 2022 7:45:47 GMT -8
I think that there is something missing from the poll. I don’t care about any of JD’s political remarks. My problem is with his nasty personal shots at other members who happen to disagree with him. This board has done a good job of maintaining a generally reasonable, if sometimes combative, tone of discussion. JD, however is often abusive of those who disagree with him, and sometimes profanely so, even when the topic is not really “political”. So I don’t really know how to vote, but put me down for curbing JD’s anti-social, abusive and profane remarks about other board members. However, it is clear that the chief moderator is just fine with JD’s hateful rhetoric, so my expectation is that this forum will soon become unbearable for me and perhaps for others who desire informed, respectful discussion and socially effective moderation. Thanks for the memories, anyway. That is rather specific, and the edit is not what I was hoping to see. We have talked about being respectful to each other, specifically no name calling. That is very important, probably the very most important, but is a different issue than the "politics" issue we have had for ages and are currently voting on. Like US politics, sometimes you have to vote even if you don't like any of the choices. (FWIW, while the moderators can see who has voted, it doesn't look like we can see how people have voted. I wouldn't expect that to matter in this poll, but some posters might feel better knowing that)
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4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,867
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Post by 4aapl on Apr 25, 2022 7:53:20 GMT -8
The board doesn't have a general problem with politics or moderation over the last two months. The issue for me is specifically about JD and his apparent need to fill the role of board political troll. I'd prefer to keep reading his often insightful posts, but his inability to self-moderate prevents that. It's hard to be a political troll if you can't post about politics. The question is how strict we should be about moderating it, while taking into account that any big changes from the current situation would change the board in a big way. Vote for what your preference is.
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Ted
fire starter
Posts: 892
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Post by Ted on Apr 25, 2022 9:08:43 GMT -8
The board doesn't have a general problem with politics or moderation over the last two months. The issue for me is specifically about JD and his apparent need to fill the role of board political troll. I'd prefer to keep reading his often insightful posts, but his inability to self-moderate prevents that. It's hard to be a political troll if you can't post about politics. The question is how strict we should be about moderating it, while taking into account that any big changes from the current situation would change the board in a big way. Vote for what your preference is. Well, that is the issue, 4aapl. It *should* be hard to be a political troll when you "can't" post about politics, but that isn't the case here, is it? You're asking how much politics should be allowed when in theory political talk is restricted due to its divisiveness. If it's an occasional thing, I'm fine with that, but if one's posts are regularly about how much political stuff can be inserted then, to me, that's a problem. If I'm in the minority, I can deal with that. I can't vote in your poll because my view isn't represented. I think appropriate mod responses need to be tailored and based on the member's posts. No one wants big changes.
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mark
fire starter
Posts: 1,631
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Post by mark on Apr 25, 2022 9:53:21 GMT -8
I think that there is something missing from the poll. I don’t care about any of JD’s political remarks. My problem is with his nasty personal shots at other members who happen to disagree with him. This board has done a good job of maintaining a generally reasonable, if sometimes combative, tone of discussion. JD, however is often abusive of those who disagree with him, and sometimes profanely so, even when the topic is not really “political”. So I don’t really know how to vote, but put me down for curbing JD’s anti-social, abusive and profane remarks about other board members. However, it is clear that the chief moderator is just fine with JD’s hateful rhetoric, so my expectation is that this forum will soon become unbearable for me and perhaps for others who desire informed, respectful discussion and socially effective moderation. Thanks for the memories, anyway. You're a moderator! Can't you just clip out the "anti-social, abusive and profane remarks" and insert a note that you have done so? Can you point to a few recent examples of such remarks (just so we know what kind of comments you are referring to)?
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Post by Luckychoices on Apr 25, 2022 10:12:41 GMT -8
This one was such a mild political interjection, and was more cute than inflammatory. And who gets to define cute, mark? You? Me? One, or all the moderators? If there are rules that should be followed to avoid the rudeness and arguments this board has experienced in the past, then members who break the rules should be warned and, upon repeat occurrences, perhaps lose their posting privileges for a week. And the rule about politics, of which every member is certainly aware is: "To All: Keep non-Apple SPECIFIC political stuff out of the daily thread." Is that rule to be modified to say: " To All: Keep non-Apple SPECIFIC political stuff out of the daily thread...except for cute political interjections."? If anyone other than JD had posted it, it would have gone entirely unnoticed. And it should go unnoticed in all cases. Please note that, last Thursday, I didn't respond to JD's "cute" political comment...I responded to JD replying to 4aapl's diplomatically-stated request to follow the rules by stating, "I don't censor myself, and have no intention of doing so. Does Elon Musk have to buy Proboards too?!" It wasn't JD's comment that crossed the line, IMO...although it was completely unnecessary and 4aapl was correct to ask him to follow the rules...it was JD stating he doesn't *intend* to follow the rules. And if one person can decide to not follow the rules, why can't all of us ignore the rules? We all know that he leans right, and there's nothing wrong with tiny interjections like that ... just like the small interjections by those who lean left when Apple does something perceived to be "left leaning". It shouldn't be a big deal. Again, chose the person who'll define "tiny interjections"...and I'll be watching for those "left leaning" postings. I visit AFB every day of the week and I obviously have missed those. The only thing worse for a board than excessive mild political discussion, is excessive discussions about the discussions (meta-discussion?).I've been on message boards since the beginning with usenet boards, and that is a general rule that applies to all boards, all topics, everywhere, and at all times (so far). A number of us have been on "message boards since the beginning with usenet boards", and have have a much different idea about what's worse. The problem with allowing a little politics, just the "cute" ones, is who decides what's cute...who decides what's more than "a little politics"?
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Post by pauls on Apr 25, 2022 10:30:28 GMT -8
I can't support any of the poll choices. I recognize moderating is thankless, so credit to the moderators. But l long ago took issue with the handing out of 'punishment' by what I perceive to be a right-leaning, JD-favoring board of moderators. So, I simply avoid getting entangled, and the board ceased to be what it had been for me over MANY years. The covid war pretty much sealed it for me-- So ironic, as my own sister, who was anti-vax, pro-conspiracy, anti-medical establishment, very anti- dem, pro-connspiracy--died of covid back in Nov. 2021. I thought to mention it here, but wouldn't have been able to stomach some of the responses sure to follow.
I still read, I hope that is fine.
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4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,867
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Post by 4aapl on Apr 25, 2022 11:07:16 GMT -8
We all know that he leans right, and there's nothing wrong with tiny interjections like that ... just like the small interjections by those who lean left when Apple does something perceived to be "left leaning". It shouldn't be a big deal. Again, chose the person who'll define "tiny interjections"...and I'll be watching for those "left leaning" postings. I visit AFB every day of the week and I obviously have missed those. The obvious example is anything to do with Tim and his personal views, when not specifically tied to Apple, as was posted in the last month with a speech to a college Tim gave. I don't have a personal problem with that sort of thing though could take a moderation issue of it not being on topic. Some do have a problem with Tim's personal views. It happens. Then there's free speech, whether in the US, China, or elsewhere. Labor laws. Protectionism. Patriotism and Nationalism. All have at least 2 sides, and have been posted about, or small interjections given. And if none of that comes to memory, there's always the "Drumpf!" post. No one is perfect, and even the interpretation of perfectness varies dramatically by the person. The moderators, currently 4 of us, get the pleasure of deciding what "tiny interjections" can scoot by and which can't. There is a good group of posters here on AFB, and generally it hasn't been much of an issue, especially since the past administrators have given their preference and reasoning behind light moderation, while only heavy handed when needed. We've warned users, moved posts, and deleted posts in the past, but generally the board has been in a good place for the last 6 months or more. The poll results are showing that the members agree, that the moderators have been doing a pretty good job. At the same time, this is all coming to a point because I thought someone was pushing the line a little too much, and so gave a public reminder just as lovemyipad and Since84 said is sometimes a good idea. So I gave a warning, on something that just so happens to bug some people that don't feel the moderators have been doing amazing. So this is exactly what they would want, and that I did without prodding. Hmmmmm. Thanks everyone! Carry on, and we will too. If one or two posters get on your nerves a little too much, Block them.
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Post by hledgard on Apr 25, 2022 11:11:55 GMT -8
Even though I voted for more leniency, I completely agree that the moderators have done a good job in the past two months. I cannot recall one post that I found offensive. Whatever is being done now, it's great !
And I sure do agree, no abusive remarks about any other members of this board should be allowed !
And thank you, to the moderators ! This board is a blessing to my life.
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4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,867
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Post by 4aapl on Apr 25, 2022 11:17:26 GMT -8
But l long ago took issue with the handing out of 'punishment' by what I perceive to be a right-leaning, JD-favoring board of moderators. It shouldn't matter, but it is interesting that some posters think the moderators are too right-leaning, while other posters feel the moderators are too left-leaning. Based on that, it seems like if we are going for being moderate, we're doing ok. Thanks for reading. Consider setting aside differences and posting again.
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Post by Luckychoices on Apr 25, 2022 11:20:20 GMT -8
I can't support any of the poll choices. You're not the only member to mention that, pauls. In spite of 4aapl posting, "...I got bombarded with emails about people feeling the moderator's moderation attempts were just not up to what some people think the moderator's moderation attempts should be", those emails, in fact messages, were about primarily one thing: Do the no-politics rules apply to all members equally, or is one member exempt from following the rules?
And, as you may have guessed, that one subject/question was not listed as a poll choice...even though it should have been.I recognize moderating is thankless, so credit to the moderators. But l long ago took issue with the handing out of 'punishment' by what I perceive to be a right-leaning, JD-favoring board of moderators. So, I simply avoid getting entangled, and the board ceased to be what it had been for me over MANY years. The fact that you made that decision "long ago" is a precursor, IMO, to what may happen to this board if the rules regarding political comments are further changed to allow *some* political commentary...the "cute" stuff. Eventually there will be only right-leaning active members on this board, but meanwhile, the moderators will have their hands full deciding what's OK and what's not OK. The covid war pretty much sealed it for me-- So ironic, as my own sister, who was anti-vax, pro-conspiracy, anti-medical establishment, very anti- dem, pro-connspiracy--died of covid back in Nov. 2021. I thought to mention it here, but wouldn't have been able to stomach some of the responses sure to follow. My sincere condolences regarding your sister, pauls. I can't imagine the pain that must have brought to you and your family.
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4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,867
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Post by 4aapl on Apr 25, 2022 12:22:43 GMT -8
In spite of 4aapl posting, "...I got bombarded with emails about people feeling the moderator's moderation attempts were just not up to what some people think the moderator's moderation attempts should be", those emails, in fact messages, were about primarily one thing: Do the no-politics rules apply to all members equally, or is one member exempt from following the rules?
And, as you may have guessed, that one subject/question was not listed as a poll choice...even though it should have been.FWIW, there were other emails this weekend that you weren't on Lucky. Back to politics, or the lack thereof, the main step is figuring out what people want to see here. If you feel things have been doing mostly ok lately, as far as politics, then go for the middle choice. If you think some politics has been slipping by, and thus moderation hasn't been quite enough in your opinion, then put that you want a little more moderation. It's pretty easy and straightforward. If more has been getting through than you would like to see, by any user, then it sounds like you are not satisfied with there being enough moderation, and you want more moderation. Chinacat is right, that it's not all about politics. There is at times a lack of respect to other users. We have talked about that in the past, such as "no name calling or personal attacks". There's plenty of time for other polls if that's what we want or need, though I'll put it out there now that I don't think a public vote to censure a particular user or vote them off the island is appropriate. But this poll is just about politics in general, if we've been doing ok as a whole, with no qualifiers about being about a specific person or group of people. If things are going well, vote that way. If there's been too much moderation, vote for one of those choices. If there's been too little moderation, vote for one of those choices. We're up to 26 votes so far. And while it's not really about the poll, I get a kick out of the username yudonomi every time I see it. Thanks everyone who has voted so far! Contrary to some recent feedback, you're reminding us that we're doing an ok job here. Mostly.
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Dave
Member
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." Yogi Berra
Posts: 4,335
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Post by Dave on Apr 25, 2022 12:26:09 GMT -8
This is a great example of why many people come to this site, this post is meaningful, useful and full information. I am thankful for archibaldtuttle’s willingness to share his knowledge. There are many others here, such as Mark that I always look forward to reading. The problem for AAPL stock isn't the strength of the economy, it's that Fed tightening will lower PE multiples. With interest rates at 0 over the last 2 years, investors and hedgies plowed more and more money into equities, expanding PE multiples. The problem now is that the air is being let out of that balloon. With contraction in the amount of money sloshing around the equities markets, it doesn't matter how good Apple earnings are, the stock can still go down and down. Even at an increase to $7 EPS, with a 20 PE multiple, AAPL would be at 140. But unfortunately there are also others here that fall into the “snowflake” category of being so very fragile and must always be protected from anything that they deem harmful. Most of the complaints on this board come from a handful of members that are silent until they have someone to complain about, at which time they are outraged and demand that something must be done. Perhaps a clue may be in order: The next time someone post something that you find offensive, simply do this. Take your finger and scroll to the next post. Take a deep breath and just perhaps it will be less upsetting for you. And Chinacat, the last time you hinted at leaving the board I tried encouraging you to stay and you did. I won’t make that mistake again. You had the choice of deleting or moving my post a few weeks ago and you chose to delete. P.S. I can’t wait to see Lucky’s dissection of this post pointing our his disagreement, like it even matters.
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Post by pauls on Apr 25, 2022 12:40:00 GMT -8
Thank you, Luckychoices
She had moved herself to an Amish community to flee the 'the loss of freedoms' via vaccines, etc. She believed there were 5g chips. She believed that Fauci was a actual demon sent from Satan. So she moved to Amish country, where no one vaccinated (relative) and more important, no one was testing. So the community could present as 'covid free', as their numbers were not real. Anyway, she got sick. Used ivermectin. Used the Trump malaria treatment. Refused to be tested. Finally ended up with advanced double pneumonia, with 65% oxygen levels, and was driven to the hospital. She refused a covid test when she got there (the community was/is adamant against testing), but the small 50 bed hospital wouldn't admit her without a test (obviously) and she would have died on the sidewalk that day, so she relented. Covid. She spent 16 days in the ICU. They wanted to move her to the city, she refused. They wanted to intubate her, she refused. They had her on a breathing apparatus designed for a max of 48 hours. She wore that thing for 16 days and didn't really sleep. She maintained the conspiracies til the end. She left behind 5 adult children and 3 grandkids. She was 62. I also lost a couple of uncles. I am touchy about covid, as many on the right still like to joke that it somehow was 'created' by the left, or politicized, or the Chinese, or that it isn't important, that the death count is fabricated, etc etc. I saw the real effects of the misinformation campaign, and I'll be angry about it for the rest of my days. Anyway, I feel so privileged to have been able to buy shares in apple when they were relatively cheap, and along with all of you, watch them blossom over the years and divide and grow to become a truly substantial asset, affording freedom to pursue whatever it is that interests us. I am also privileged to get in line early for the vaccine and boosters, to be able to self-quarantine to the extent I felt appropriate, and to do what I could for those around me who have less privilege. When I first joined this group, in a different formation, I was rooting on my initial $8000 investment in shares, at pre-split $86/share. Times change.
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Post by Luckychoices on Apr 25, 2022 12:58:53 GMT -8
Thank you, Luckychoices She had moved herself to an Amish community to flee the 'the loss of freedoms' via vaccines, etc. She believed there were 5g chips. She believed that Fauci was a actual demon sent from Satan. So she moved to Amish country, where no one vaccinated (relative) and more important, no one was testing. So the community could present as 'covid free', as their numbers were not real. Anyway, she got sick. Used ivermectin. Used the Trump malaria treatment. Refused to be tested. Finally ended up with advanced double pneumonia, with 65% oxygen levels, and was driven to the hospital. She refused a covid test when she got there (the community was/is adamant against testing), but the small 50 bed hospital wouldn't admit her without a test (obviously) and she would have died on the sidewalk that day, so she relented. Covid. She spent 16 days in the ICU. They wanted to move her to the city, she refused. They wanted to intubate her, she refused. They had her on a breathing apparatus designed for a max of 48 hours. She wore that thing for 16 days and didn't really sleep. She maintained the conspiracies til the end. She left behind 5 adult children and 3 grandkids. She was 62. I also lost a couple of uncles. I am touchy about covid, as many on the right still like to joke that it somehow was 'created' by the left, or politicized, or the Chinese, or that it isn't important, that the death count is fabricated, etc etc. I saw the real effects of the misinformation campaign, and I'll be angry about it for the rest of my days. That's so absolutely horrible, pauls. Unfortunately, I'm familiar with most of the COVID-19 misinformation that was disseminated, but to see it play out with a family member is unimaginable to me. Thanks for recounting what happened with your sister. Anyway, I feel so privileged to have been able to buy shares in apple when they were relatively cheap, and along with all of you, watch them blossom over the years and divide and grow to become a truly substantial asset, affording freedom to pursue whatever it is that interests us. I am also privileged to get in line early for the vaccine and boosters, to be able to self-quarantine to the extent I felt appropriate, and to do what I could for those around me who have less privilege. When I first joined this group, in a different formation, I was rooting on my initial $8000 investment in shares, at pre-split $86/share. Times change. Unfortunately, it's not that often that privileged people can recognize that they're privileged. 😊 Glad you bought those AAPL shares so very long ago. 👍
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Post by Luckychoices on Apr 25, 2022 13:11:21 GMT -8
The board doesn't have a general problem with politics or moderation over the last two months. The issue for me is specifically about JD and his apparent need to fill the role of board political troll. I'd prefer to keep reading his often insightful posts, but his inability to self-moderate prevents that. It's hard to be a political troll if you can't post about politics.Wait, it's hard to be a political troll if you can't post about politics? But isn't the rule, "To All: Keep non-Apple SPECIFIC political stuff out of the daily thread."?
Some people may take that rule to mean keep non-Apple specific political stuff out of the daily thread. In which case, AFB members would never be forced to read the musings of a political troll...either a left-leaning political troll or a right-leaning political troll. The question is how strict we should be about moderating it, while taking into account that any big changes from the current situation would change the board in a big way.The one important change needed from the current situation is that members *have* to be able to self-censor themselves so a moderator doesn't need to spend the time or energy to intercede. That's not a big change, it's a no-brainer. When my boys were teenagers, if I told them to be home by 11 on a school night and they told me they didn't *intend* to be home by 11, *that* would have been a problem that needed my attention. When a moderator requests that a member eliminate political references from future postings...and that member replies they have no intention of censoring their postings...*that's* a problem that needs attention. Vote for what your preference is. My preference is not listed in the poll...my preference is that *all* AFB members follow the rules. Not just *most* AFB members...all AFB members. Somehow, that didn't get added as a poll choice. Now, if the moderators intend to change the rules to *allow* political comments from now on, then I don't need to vote.
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JDSoCal
Member
Aspiring oligarch
Posts: 4,241
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Post by JDSoCal on Apr 25, 2022 14:02:16 GMT -8
A great day for free speech, comrades!
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Post by pauls on Apr 25, 2022 14:11:29 GMT -8
4aapl-
"It shouldn't matter, but it is interesting that some posters think the moderators are too right-leaning, while other posters feel the moderators are too left-leaning."
Again, I appreciate the effort that must go in to moderating. But this 'both sides' stuff.....it is notable that this current conversation is pretty much the same conversation we were having two years ago, about the same right wing poster who felt that the rules didn't apply (and indeed, each and every time he goes off the reservation, he is applauded and encouraged by some, including this time).
I haven't noticed any democrats (who, lets face it, are all fairly moderate around these parts-- not that that should matter) habitually lose their ability to keep their politics in check in the daily thread. It's pretty much just JD, just as it's always been. And if no one pipes up to complain, there is no harm, no foul.
That's been my vantage, your's is obviously coming from a different place, and I respect that.
I don't have nearly as much invested in this place as I once did-- a lot of my favorite posters are long gone, and as I've said, that we couldn't even have a grown up, data-based discussion about a pandemic was pretty disappointing for me. I couldn't understand that, as the entire globe was slowing and effecting our investments and our lives. That even that got heavily (and personally) politicized, to the point that the whole conversation became forbidden.... I'm not really sure what the point is. And to someone else's point-- pretty much any subject is Apple related these days. One of the most fascinating subjects to me, as an investor, is how Apple stacks up against its peers in an evolving political environment based around privacy, equal rights, workers' rights, different approaches to different markets, etc. These are subjects that just aren't possible to discuss in the current iteration of this board. In the past, that wasn't the case.
Just some odd thoughts. I recognize that I have my own politics, and don't hold them higher than anyone else's, but I can't pretend to be neutral, either.
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mark
fire starter
Posts: 1,631
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Post by mark on Apr 25, 2022 15:36:46 GMT -8
The covid war pretty much sealed it for me-- So ironic, as my own sister, who was anti-vax, pro-conspiracy, anti-medical establishment, very anti- dem, pro-conspiracy--died of covid back in Nov. 2021. I thought to mention it here, but wouldn't have been able to stomach some of the responses sure to follow. I still read, I hope that is fine. Paul, so sorry for your loss. It's just horrible. I often look around and cannot believe how ... how ... how "stupid" we have become as a nation. I just don't know any other way to describe it. I suspect, but am not sure, that the core of the recent stupidity is "party over everything" or "ideology over everything", it's like intersectionality has taken over in all domains ... intersectionality is essentially a "rule" that if you don't agree with me politically on all things, then you can't agree with me on one particular thing (you can't march with me in protest about one particular thing, or you can't belong to the same support organization I do, etc). It's just so asinine, and it is destroying our country. And I refer above to both right stupidity and left stupidity, neither side has a monopoly on it, heck, even the middle has exhibited some stupidity, though somewhat less pronounced. Sometimes I think the malady (of this stupidity) is caused by social media, and sometimes I think the malady is surreptitiously being pushed by our primary enemies (Russia and China), and sometimes I think that it is just a general deterioration of our brains. Maybe it's a combination of all of them?
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4aapl
Moderator
Posts: 3,867
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Post by 4aapl on Apr 25, 2022 16:59:08 GMT -8
Again, I appreciate the effort that must go in to moderating. But this 'both sides' stuff.....it is notable that this current conversation is pretty much the same conversation we were having two years ago, about the same right wing poster who felt that the rules didn't apply (and indeed, each and every time he goes off the reservation, he is applauded and encouraged by some, including this time). I haven't noticed any democrats (who, lets face it, are all fairly moderate around these parts-- not that that should matter) habitually lose their ability to keep their politics in check in the daily thread. It's pretty much just JD, just as it's always been. And if no one pipes up to complain, there is no harm, no foul. There have been occasions where a variety of people have gone political, lately not too often on the daily thread and instead in some of the other places like the former Covid thread. When it does start, it's often a build up off of something minor that someone else posted. But the biases we all have make it so that we might not even see a tiny dig that we agree with, instead only seeing the ones we disagree with. I'm fine asking all to continue to self-moderate, potentially even asking people to do a better job at it. Which I have. People have generally done a good job at self-moderating. The vote is showing that people are generally pretty happy here, with the daily and weekend thread. I agree with you, that it was sad that 2 different Covid threads were politicized and degraded. And that is why we are back here, not only focusing on our core values of AAPL, Apple, and finances, but also no longer allowing other topics. That's tough. But it's what we have, while realizing there are a multitude of other places to talk about other things. Self-moderation is preferred and encouraged, but if someone doesn't manage it the next step is having at least one of the four moderators get after someone about it, yet another reason that it is great that we have 4 moderators that cover roughly 3 different views. Lately, but also over the past 3 years, politics has been our main achilles heal. And so my poll focused on it possibly a little too much. But it comes down to us all having to work together if we want to stay together, while also realizing that the poll shows that lately things have been going decently well in that regard. Good to see AAPL turn from red to green today, along with the market.
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Post by artman1033 on Apr 25, 2022 19:18:07 GMT -8
A great day for free speech, comrades! INDEED! I say he is getting more like IRONMAN every day. I believe he is the number one defense contractor. Do you think he is working on the ELECTRIC TANKS?
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platon
Member
"All we can know is that we know nothing. And that's the height of human wisdom.? Tolstoy
Posts: 3,944
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Post by platon on Apr 25, 2022 21:13:36 GMT -8
I understand some people can't stand political discussions, but it is mostly those people who can't stand to be disagreed with. They think that they should be immune from being told that they are wrong about something, in someone else's opinion. They hate it when someone else is able to argue the opposing side as good, and often better they are able to do. This is true of both sides of the political divide, but on this forum (and most others) it is more true of those who hold a left-wing perspective. I thought Lovey decided on the perfect solution with the Dungeon but some people cannot handle disagreement even when they don't have to see it. I can prove this point if I wanted to take the time, but I don't. I just really wanted to ask those of you on Twitter, are you going to quit if Musk does what he said and allows all of those Conservative members out there to post as freely as those Liberals do?
No, I have seen you all in action, you don't want all political posts to end, you just want all political posts that disagree with your politics to end. JD is the best Apple poster on this forum (along with 4aapl perhaps), an also the best political poster on here as well, but like a chorus of schoolgirls you seek to silence him when he brings up politics even if it includes Apple in its point. Yet when Firestorm made even more blatant posts with his "often" obnoxious and personal comments on the Daily, not one of you in the choir spoke up to chastise him, because he agreed with your politics. 4aapl was the only mod to call him on it, because Artman leans Conservative and lets everyone freely speak, and Chinacat deletes Dave, the nicest guy on the Forum. This is the perfect example of what I am talking about and it is the height of hypocrisy.
One last question, if all of you on the left hate politics so much, why did you even come to the Dungeon, where you knew the politics would be, and is there more or less traffic on this forum now than there was when we had a political thread? Like I said you only hate "our" politics and you have to silence those posts.
I no longer have a horse in this rodeo because I probably know less about Apple the stock than anyone here, and I don't have to be a member to read the Daily, but if Musk does what he said he is going to do, come on over and debate with us because I will get a membership. I can hold my own in the political arena. Oh I forgot, there is that problem of someone disagreeing with you isn't there?
Has anyone noticed the market lately? Apparently politics matters when it comes to the stock market. You don't have to delete this 4aapl, all of the "snowflakes" I am referring to have me on ignore so they won't see this unless someone replies to it. Why don't they just ignore JD instead of wanting to ban him (what they want even if they don't admit it). Throw me to wolves if you must satisfy them but keep JD, I really like to read his posts.
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Post by macster on Apr 26, 2022 6:18:49 GMT -8
If this was 2019 early 2020 with the US economy pumping on all cylinders, the boarder more secure ever, less dangerous drugs being channeled across the border, China and Russia being timid, US gaining world respect, minority’s improving wealth and just overall good times this thread would have never existed because look how bad things have deteriorated and we wouldn’t want to inflame the majority members dropping minor hints now and then now wouldn’t we? Lol Count how many minutes this post exists here. Let’s not pull a Twitter.
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