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Post by chasmac on Nov 19, 2012 16:07:09 GMT -8
The only thing I can see TC saying to Obama that would have any immediate effect would be a push for a cash repatriation tax break, apple could then pay a significant special dividend to shareholders, which together with other large companies doing the same would inject 100s of billions into the economy fast. I'm not a big fan of the special dividend, but that may be the only way for that money to be brought into this country. Also, if I am the president, I would be talking tax break, not tax holiday; we need the additional revenues. But then, if the total amount being repatriated is on the order of $50-75B, taxing at say 5% would result in $2.5-3.5B in revenue, which is the proverbially drop in the bucket. Applying this to other companies may get something meaningful, as well as allowing for the money to be used for "stuff" which could grow the economy. And what stuff would Apple do with that and why wouldn't they be doing that with the Billions they already have here? Food for thought
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Post by Zeke on Nov 19, 2012 16:24:08 GMT -8
I caution everyone to stop working backwards to get to a target EPS number - apple is taking a big initial margin hit whenever it releases an all new iPhone design. The last time we had a December quarter with all new iPhone design (iPhone 4), the GM was 38.5% on guidance of 36%. If this is true, will the new iMac designs also detract from GM?
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Post by appledoc on Nov 19, 2012 16:25:23 GMT -8
Best day ever for my portfolio. Options account is less than half as red as it was yesterday. Still looking to buy more. I can't believe I missed out on Friday and today because of interviews.
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Post by mbeauch on Nov 19, 2012 16:29:22 GMT -8
I just want to say that a special dividend would suck lemons. The money would serve ALL better if they bought back shares.
Chas, I thought of you this morning. I know you made 8.70 on Friday, what would it have been if you had held through today? I am not being a SA, just curious. So happy for you on Friday. Love the AC/DC tie in also.
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Post by Zeke on Nov 19, 2012 16:30:03 GMT -8
Am I the only one who thinks TC meeting with Obama is enormous news. Of course for AAPL the stock this is technical move, short covering, and the oversold lift we have needed for the past month and we are 15-20% away from the stock being priced fairly again. But I think TC meeting with the president is enormously important for Apple over the next 4 years such as in US jobs, corporate taxes and repatriation. To me every instituition knows they need Apple to perform well over the next 4 years and so does the Fed's. Hopefully, TC was able to sway some pro apple reforms. This suggests that a tax holiday or reduction for overseas profits may be part of any compromise the president works out with congress to avoid the financial cliff. It's the biggest issue Apple has with taxes.
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Post by spoonman on Nov 19, 2012 16:35:38 GMT -8
One of the best days ever.
AAPL up big today Rutgers to the B1G
whoooooo!!!!!!
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Post by Zeke on Nov 19, 2012 16:41:13 GMT -8
Am I the only one who thinks TC meeting with Obama is enormous news. Of course for AAPL the stock this is technical move, short covering, and the oversold lift we have needed for the past month and we are 15-20% away from the stock being priced fairly again. But I think TC meeting with the president is enormously important for Apple over the next 4 years such as in US jobs, corporate taxes and repatriation. To me every instituition knows they need Apple to perform well over the next 4 years and so does the Fed's. Hopefully, TC was able to sway some pro apple reforms. The only thing I can see TC saying to Obama that would have any immediate effect would be a push for a cash repatriation tax break, apple could then pay a significant special dividend to shareholders, which together with other large companies doing the same would inject 100s of billions into the economy fast. Excellent idea!
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Post by Zeke on Nov 19, 2012 16:51:11 GMT -8
Currently using my AT&T unlocked 4 on T-Mobile... We have the whole family on T-Mobile with unlocked (and in my case jail broken) 3GS iPhones. We'll probably move to 4 or 4S soon. Their coverage is getting better. We have at least 3G service in most areas around Portland now.
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Post by appledoc on Nov 19, 2012 16:53:18 GMT -8
Please tax holiday. Please tax holiday. Please tax holiday.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 17:00:07 GMT -8
I'm no accountant, but if I recall correctly apple has put aside a large amount of cash as liabilities in the event of paying the tax on cash repatriation.
If there was in fact a tax reduction/holiday on repatriation, would these billions of dollars put aside suddenly be added to profits for the quarter? or restated earnings for previous quarters? does anyone know how that would work?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 17:11:19 GMT -8
I'm not a big fan of the special dividend, but that may be the only way for that money to be brought into this country. Neither am I, but it brings up a question. How does a special dividend affect options? If, let's say, there is a special dividend of $50/share, and shares drop by $50 on the ex day, how are options affected - do the prices of calls simply drop and the prices of puts rise due to that purely financial action? (and the people on the wrong end of the trade essentially get screwed) As far as I know the price of options in the event of a special dividend are corrected by the amount of the dividend. (I dont know what would happen to calls which would technically become a negative strike price though...) "Sometimes, however, corporations pay a special one-time dividend and, in these cases, they do cause adjustments to option strikes. Whenever a special dividend is announced, all call and put strikes are reduced by the amount of the dividend. For example, on July 20, 2004 Microsoft announced a special $3 cash dividend. This was a special one-time dividend so the option strikes – calls and puts – were adjusted downward by the amount of the dividend. If you were holding the $30 call, it became a $27 strike. If you were holding the $30 put, it also became a $27 strike. Why does this happen? Again, any adjustment in option strikes is done to assure that option investors are not financially hurt (or unfairly rewarded) because of a corporate action such as a split, merger, or even a special dividend."
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Post by rutgersguy92 on Nov 19, 2012 17:12:19 GMT -8
One of the best days ever. AAPL up big today Rutgers to the B1G whoooooo!!!!!! Is that true? RU to the Big Ten? Or are you just going by the talk over the week-end?
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4aapl
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Post by 4aapl on Nov 19, 2012 17:12:27 GMT -8
I'm no accountant, but if I recall correctly apple has put aside a large amount of cash as liabilities in the event of paying the tax on cash repatriation. If there was in fact a tax reduction/holiday on repatriation, would these billions of dollars put aside suddenly be added to profits for the quarter? or restated earnings for previous quarters? does anyone know how that would work? That is the question! If it wasn't a retroactive change, offhand it doesn't seem like they could restate earnings. Instead, I would think it would be a one time event, like buying a company. Personally, I don't see a complete holiday, but maybe a partial one. Unless there's a tie in to other requirements, like job creation. But maybe that's just me trying to think things should be "fair", and that they wouldn't possibly give large corporations with billions to repatriate a free ride, while all the time saying that those of us with occasional large investment gains must pay a whole lot more. Someone said life is fair, right? ;D
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Post by capablanca on Nov 19, 2012 17:17:39 GMT -8
[...]How does a special dividend affect options? If, let's say, there is a special dividend of $50/share, and shares drop by $50 on the ex day, how are options affected - do the prices of calls simply drop and the prices of puts rise due to that purely financial action? (and the people on the wrong end of the trade essentially get screwed) It would normally be handled in similar fashion to a stock split. The option strikes are adjusted for large one-time special dividends.
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Post by rutgersguy92 on Nov 19, 2012 17:18:06 GMT -8
One of the best days ever. AAPL up big today Rutgers to the B1G whoooooo!!!!!! Is that true? RU to the Big Ten? Or are you just going by the talk over the week-end? Looks like it is. Just went over to the Rutgers Rivals site, and that was the talk. Plus congrats from Cuse and State Penn fans.
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Post by michelc on Nov 19, 2012 17:36:10 GMT -8
I'm no accountant, but if I recall correctly apple has put aside a large amount of cash as liabilities in the event of paying the tax on cash repatriation. If there was in fact a tax reduction/holiday on repatriation, would these billions of dollars put aside suddenly be added to profits for the quarter? or restated earnings for previous quarters? does anyone know how that would work? That is the question! If it wasn't a retroactive change, offhand it doesn't seem like they could restate earnings. Instead, I would think it would be a one time event, like buying a company. Personally, I don't see a complete holiday, but maybe a partial one. Unless there's a tie in to other requirements, like job creation. But maybe that's just me trying to think things should be "fair", and that they wouldn't possibly give large corporations with billions to repatriate a free ride, while all the time saying that those of us with occasional large investment gains must pay a whole lot more. Someone said life is fair, right? ;D All depends on how the Gov handle this. I guess a one time event is more likely. I would prefer a restatement. PE by itself will make the stock go up , oppose to a one time event will be put aside and will have less impact cause treated as a well, one time event.
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Post by newton on Nov 19, 2012 17:52:27 GMT -8
Awesome day! Onward to $600....
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Post by rickag on Nov 19, 2012 18:07:40 GMT -8
I'm not a big fan of the special dividend, but that may be the only way for that money to be brought into this country. Also, if I am the president, I would be talking tax break, not tax holiday; we need the additional revenues. But then, if the total amount being repatriated is on the order of $50-75B, taxing at say 5% would result in $2.5-3.5B in revenue, which is the proverbially drop in the bucket. Applying this to other companies may get something meaningful, as well as allowing for the money to be used for "stuff" which could grow the economy. And what stuff would Apple do with that and why wouldn't they be doing that with the Billions they already have here? Food for thoughtSo basically this entire article reenfores the fact that US corporate taxes are too high, hence corporations keep their profits overseas.
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Post by mbeauch on Nov 19, 2012 18:46:33 GMT -8
And what stuff would Apple do with that and why wouldn't they be doing that with the Billions they already have here? Food for thoughtSo basically this entire article reenfores the fact that US corporate taxes are too high, hence corporations keep their profits overseas. That article is everything that is wrong with the economy. These authors make claims that are just speculation. they claim the companies will bring the money back anyway so this would result in a loss of tax revenue. When people think like that they should automatically be discredited. Apple holds its money overseas for a reason, they will not bring it back without some kind of incentive. Personally I think a 10% repatriation tax would be perfect.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 18:46:48 GMT -8
imagine if you were one of those who sold at $505 on friday....
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Post by mbeauch on Nov 19, 2012 18:52:56 GMT -8
imagine if you were one of those who sold at $505 on friday.... Those would be the people who had put in stops long time ago and forgot about them. I feel for them. They are going to look into their account and realize they were sold out and now are $60 in the hole. Stops my ass.
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JDSoCal
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Aspiring oligarch
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Post by JDSoCal on Nov 19, 2012 19:25:42 GMT -8
Rather than 11 straight posts like some people, not to mention any names (Mav), Personally, I don't see a complete holiday, but maybe a partial one. Unless there's a tie in to other requirements, like job creation. But maybe that's just me trying to think things should be "fair", and that they wouldn't possibly give large corporations with billions to repatriate a free ride, while all the time saying that those of us with occasional large investment gains must pay a whole lot more. It's not a "free ride." Apple pays taxes in the countries where the money is earned. Every other country in the world does not double-tax such profits (e.g., Samsung USA doesn't pay taxes in Korea on profits earned and taxed here). And of course, any divy paid out would be taxable, which would be *triple* taxation of the same profits. BTW, no CEO in his right mind makes hiring decisions on one-time tax breaks. This is why we need long-term, reliable tax policy if you want to see anything other than a capital strike. Also, if I am the president, I would be talking tax break, not tax holiday; we need the additional revenues. But then, if the total amount being repatriated is on the order of $50-75B, taxing at say 5% would result in $2.5-3.5B in revenue, which is the proverbially drop in the bucket. Applying this to other companies may get something meaningful, as well as allowing for the money to be used for "stuff" which could grow the economy. The number I am hearing US corps are sitting on abroad is $1.5T. Why tax it at all? It's a "free" 2X stimulus. Why is it economically sensible for the government to spend $787T we don't have on credit on some "stimulus," but not let US corps spend $1.5T that doesn't cost one taxpayer dime? Because the government is more rational and sensible in spending money and picking winners? LOL! Besides, 5% of that is a mere 75 billion, a rounding error for our $1T annual deficit (as it this "tax the rich" nonsense). I love the thinking in Washington. Spend taxpayer dollars recklessly like it's Monopoly money, but suddenly they are fiscal hawks about private money sitting idle overseas?
BTW, a great response by Burgess on Florian Mueller's article. For all his good reporting on patents, Mueller is an open-source advocate, and like most Android fanboys, apparently he can't separate his love of the concept from the actual business model.
So JD...should UCLA play to win or send the practice squad out this week against Stanford? Last year in Eugene was ugly. Then again, Ricky is gone. I honestly don't follow it close enough to intelligently comment, other than 1) home court/stadium is a big advantage in college and 2) my standard stock advice: don't fight momentum.
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Post by Luckychoices on Nov 19, 2012 19:40:57 GMT -8
Fear not - I received my iPad mini a few moments ago - FULL ONE DAY EARLY! So there ya go! I don't know what lit the fire under the iPad mini deliveries but mine was originally scheduled to be delivered on 11/21. Then they changed the delivery date to 11/26, as in a week from today. So of course Fedex came today while we were out and about. Picked up in Shanghai, China on Friday, 11/16 and delivered to my doorstep on Monday, 11/19? That's some seriously fast delivery time. Well, I do hope you're enjoying your mini, I've got to wait one more day. javascript:add("%20:-[")
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Post by Zeke on Nov 19, 2012 19:43:56 GMT -8
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Post by artman1033 on Nov 19, 2012 19:47:25 GMT -8
The foreign provision for income taxes is based on foreign pretax earnings of $36.8 billion, $24.0 billion and $13.0 billion in 2012, 2011 and 2010, respectively. The Company’s consolidated financial statements provide for any related tax liability on amounts that may be repatriated, aside from undistributed earnings of certain of the Company’s foreign subsidiaries that are intended to be indefinitely reinvested in operations outside the U.S. As of September 29, 2012, U.S. income taxes have not been provided on a cumulative total of $40.4 billion of such earnings. The amount of unrecognized deferred tax liability related to these temporary differences is estimated to be approximately $13.8 billion. From the 10-K page 61
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Post by artman1033 on Nov 19, 2012 19:57:12 GMT -8
$7,314,000,000 long lived assets in China includes Hong Kong. Long-lived assets located in China consist primarily of product tooling and manufacturing process equipment and assets related to retail stores and related infrastructure. From the 10-K page 73 Last year the number was $2,613,000,000. SO, that is an increase of over $4.7 BILLION in one year. That is a lot of tooling!! correction!
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Post by mbeauch on Nov 19, 2012 20:15:25 GMT -8
Artman, I found something on page 37 thatseemed close, but could not find the numbers you posted. Can you tell me what page you got those numbers from. BTW, thanks a lot for making me read so much. My head is hurting now.
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Mav
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Post by Mav on Nov 19, 2012 20:30:57 GMT -8
Did someone call out the class clown? Since sponge isn't around as much , anyone in AFB2 gets ONE free, iPad-approved (as in not moderated, I guess ) all-in-fun joke at my expense EVERY time AAPL spikes more than 25 points in a day. (Limit one joke per +25 or more day, for obvious reasons.) How about it? (Heh.)
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Post by artman1033 on Nov 19, 2012 20:37:16 GMT -8
Mark: I have corrected the posts with the correct pages noted. As Horace says: "There is a wealth of information in the Apple 10-K."
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Post by Red Shirted Ensign on Nov 19, 2012 20:38:02 GMT -8
So the Commodore took my (sorry....her) white iPad mini on her client rounds for the first time today. I lost title to this device as soon as she discovered it was "purse size". Anyway, she tells me she sold four additional minis today. Her clients ( generally older individuals) could not believe how sleek, solid and easy to use the mini was. One client ordered two for children or grandkids, two ordered for themselves. One was hesitant because she "liked to read the kindle books" and thought she needed a kindle to read "kindle books". The Commodore popped open the kindle app on the mini.....voila. Sold I'm wondering if she might not be able to push a dozen of these by Black Friday.
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