|
Post by aapl4kiki on Sept 10, 2013 14:29:50 GMT -8
China prices (including 17% sales tax): iPhone 4 8GB: 2588 RMB - $423 iPhone 4S 8GB 3288 RMB - $537 iPhone 5C 16GB: 4488 RMB - $733 iPhone 5C 32GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 16GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 32GB: 6088 RMB - $995 iPhone 5S 64GB: 6888 RMB - $1125 Apple is cynical, money-hungry and doomed in China. They will claim ignorance as they continue to lose their foothold on China as analysts ask why Apple isn't more competitive there. Did CML blink?
|
|
JDSoCal
Member
Aspiring oligarch
Posts: 4,185
|
Post by JDSoCal on Sept 10, 2013 14:30:04 GMT -8
I looked at the China prices posted above and like most of you am scratching my head on the price...finding it seemingly too high. I refuse to believe that AAPL priced the 5C based on a random game of throwing spaghetti against the wall. They MUST have researched this and we are possibly missing something here, no? Nope, Apple has no pricing strategy in China. It's all ad hoc. If only Tim Cook read this board.
|
|
Mav
Member
[img style="max-width:100%;" alt=" " src="http://www.forumup.it/images/smiles/simo.gif"]
Posts: 10,784
|
Post by Mav on Sept 10, 2013 14:34:04 GMT -8
Apple is like a ship with a hole in the bottom, and Tim Cook's job is to get everyone rowing in the right direction.
|
|
|
Post by Gridlock on Sept 10, 2013 14:35:40 GMT -8
re: China Mobile. Wasn't 'revenue sharing' one of the long-time sticking points to a deal with Apple? Could a few of those extra dollars in the price of the new phones be going back into CM's pockets? -- which I would view as a good thing, since it would help motivate them to hit the streets and sell, sell, sell.
|
|
|
Post by rickag on Sept 10, 2013 14:36:22 GMT -8
China prices (including 17% sales tax): iPhone 4 8GB: 2588 RMB - $423 iPhone 4S 8GB 3288 RMB - $537 iPhone 5C 16GB: 4488 RMB - $733 iPhone 5C 32GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 16GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 32GB: 6088 RMB - $995 iPhone 5S 64GB: 6888 RMB - $1125 Apple is cynical, money-hungry and doomed in China. They will claim ignorance as they continue to lose their foothold on China as analysts ask why Apple isn't more competitive there. Apple is conceeding market share in China and other lower income markets, for now. Why, I don't know, but seems obvious at this point. I am sure they have a plan, I just am not privy to it. And no, Apple is not doomed. I'll wait to see how this plays out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 14:36:26 GMT -8
China prices (including 17% sales tax): iPhone 4 8GB: 2588 RMB - $423 iPhone 4S 8GB 3288 RMB - $537 iPhone 5C 16GB: 4488 RMB - $733 iPhone 5C 32GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 16GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 32GB: 6088 RMB - $995 iPhone 5S 64GB: 6888 RMB - $1125 Apple HAS added a cheaper iPhone model for the chinese market today - its called the iPhone 4 at $115 cheaper than yesterday. While everyone complains the iPhone 5C isn't cheap enough in China, millions of additional iPhone 4 units will be sold.
|
|
|
Post by tuffett on Sept 10, 2013 14:37:39 GMT -8
I looked at the China prices posted above and like most of you am scratching my head on the price...finding it seemingly too high. I refuse to believe that AAPL priced the 5C based on a random game of throwing spaghetti against the wall. They MUST have researched this and we are possibly missing something here, no? The only thing that makes sense is if the carriers have been convinced to offer a subsidy model, or there is some sort of zero/low financing plan.
|
|
Mav
Member
[img style="max-width:100%;" alt=" " src="http://www.forumup.it/images/smiles/simo.gif"]
Posts: 10,784
|
Post by Mav on Sept 10, 2013 14:39:03 GMT -8
And, subsidy model. Also millions of almost-automatic iPhone subs already on CM when the news hits.
If you like/can tolerate your carrier, unsubsidized pricing doesn't matter as much.
|
|
Mav
Member
[img style="max-width:100%;" alt=" " src="http://www.forumup.it/images/smiles/simo.gif"]
Posts: 10,784
|
Post by Mav on Sept 10, 2013 14:39:56 GMT -8
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 14:40:47 GMT -8
I looked at the China prices posted above and like most of you am scratching my head on the price...finding it seemingly too high. I refuse to believe that AAPL priced the 5C based on a random game of throwing spaghetti against the wall. They MUST have researched this and we are possibly missing something here, no? Appearances can be deceiving. China taxes production (profits/wages) at a very low rate, instead opting to tax consumption (retail trade). China may be doing this with a Value Added tax, but I don't think so. I think China has a national sales tax (increases tax due on imported goods much more than a VAT). The benefit to the consumer is that domestically produced goods are less expensive than imported goods, AND the Chinese worker keeps a much larger percent of his/her earnings than in the west. If I recall correctly, the consumption tax in China was between 25% and 30% (my last trip there was 12 years ago). Eliminating that tax from the 5C puts the actual retail price (sans tax) between US$563 and US$586. This is the taxation method that I support in the US. With it you keep everything you earn, whether wages or investments, paying tax only on what you consume. Imported goods (which are taxed very little, if at all, in their country of origin) are suddenly 30% higher, while exported US goods become 20% to 25% less expensive overseas. You want to see Apple's products manufactured in the US? Implement this tax code change.
|
|
|
Post by tuffett on Sept 10, 2013 14:43:49 GMT -8
China prices (including 17% sales tax): iPhone 4 8GB: 2588 RMB - $423 iPhone 4S 8GB 3288 RMB - $537 iPhone 5C 16GB: 4488 RMB - $733 iPhone 5C 32GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 16GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 32GB: 6088 RMB - $995 iPhone 5S 64GB: 6888 RMB - $1125 Apple HAS added a cheaper iPhone model for the chinese market today - its called the iPhone 4 at $115 cheaper than yesterday. While everyone complains the iPhone 5C isn't cheap enough in China, millions of additional iPhone 4 units will be sold. Even if millions are sold, I don't think the iPhone 4 provides a good enough experience for today's consumer. It will run a stripped down iOS7 and it's quite certain that it won't run iOS 8. It just doesn't seem like something Apple should do. I mean, why not extend the logic and offer the 3GS as well for $300? I'm sure some would sell, but I don't think it does Apple any good long term.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 14:46:21 GMT -8
China prices (including 17% sales tax): iPhone 4 8GB: 2588 RMB - $423 iPhone 4S 8GB 3288 RMB - $537 iPhone 5C 16GB: 4488 RMB - $733 iPhone 5C 32GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 16GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 32GB: 6088 RMB - $995 iPhone 5S 64GB: 6888 RMB - $1125 Apple HAS added a cheaper iPhone model for the chinese market today - its called the iPhone 4 at $115 cheaper than yesterday. While everyone complains the iPhone 5C isn't cheap enough in China, millions of additional iPhone 4 units will be sold. I'm not an Android fan by any means, but if I wasn't on a subsidized contract like everyone else in North America, you can bet I'd look at the Nexus 4 for $249 well before I'd consider an iPhone that's 4 generations old now and still selling for $423. I'm sure the majority of the chinese market will think this way as well...would they rather have an iPhone, of course...but would they be willing to pay 3 or 4 times as much? I would have loved to see the 5C at $399, even just in emerging markets to gain some market share at the cost of margins. But what do I know
|
|
|
Post by tuffett on Sept 10, 2013 14:46:51 GMT -8
I looked at the China prices posted above and like most of you am scratching my head on the price...finding it seemingly too high. I refuse to believe that AAPL priced the 5C based on a random game of throwing spaghetti against the wall. They MUST have researched this and we are possibly missing something here, no? Nope, Apple has no pricing strategy in China. It's all ad hoc. If only Tim Cook read this board. Sure they have a strategy, but what makes you so sure it's the right one? Wasn't Tim Cook admittedly surprised by the poor performance in China recently? He's not omniscient. Nobody is. Maybe they're making a mistake here, maybe not. Let the debate go on without the snide, smug comments.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 14:47:01 GMT -8
China prices (including 17% sales tax): iPhone 4 8GB: 2588 RMB - $423 iPhone 4S 8GB 3288 RMB - $537 iPhone 5C 16GB: 4488 RMB - $733 iPhone 5C 32GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 16GB: 5288 RMB - $864 iPhone 5S 32GB: 6088 RMB - $995 iPhone 5S 64GB: 6888 RMB - $1125 Ahh, just got to your post. Looks like China has lowered its sales tax rate since I was last there. China must not need the higher rate to fund its budget. That's what happens when retail trade increases faster than government spending.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 14:55:18 GMT -8
Apple HAS added a cheaper iPhone model for the chinese market today - its called the iPhone 4 at $115 cheaper than yesterday. While everyone complains the iPhone 5C isn't cheap enough in China, millions of additional iPhone 4 units will be sold. I'm not an Android fan by any means, but if I wasn't on a subsidized contract like everyone else in North America, you can bet I'd look at the Nexus 4 for $249 well before I'd consider an iPhone that's 4 generations old now and still selling for $423. I'm sure the majority of the chinese market will think this way as well...would they rather have an iPhone, of course...but would they be willing to pay 3 or 4 times as much? I would have loved to see the 5C at $399, even just in emerging markets to gain some market share at the cost of margins. There are about 35,000,000 iPhones on China Mobile's unsupported network. Grey market iPhones cost in excess of $1,000 each, and on the China Mobile network only 12% get 3G service. So it would appear that your point of view has been out voted by at least 35,000,000 to 1. Not enough.
|
|
|
Post by calvinav on Sept 10, 2013 14:55:48 GMT -8
I'm not an Android fan by any means, but if I wasn't on a subsidized contract like everyone else in North America, you can bet I'd look at the Nexus 4 for $249 well before I'd consider an iPhone that's 4 generations old now and still selling for $423. I'm sure the majority of the chinese market will think this way as well...would they rather have an iPhone, of course...but would they be willing to pay 3 or 4 times as much? I would have loved to see the 5C at $399, even just in emerging markets to gain some market share at the cost of margins. But what do I know Are you aware of a link for Nexus 4's price in China? I wanted to do a direct comparison. All I found was this old link giving the 16 GB Nexus 4's price as 3880 RMB or $633. Seems a bit too high. news.softpedia.com/news/Nexus-4-Spotted-in-China-Overpriced-309192.shtml
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 14:56:05 GMT -8
Why would Apple concede margin when it will sell all it can make for the next two quarters, particularly if DoCoMo and CM are both added? Apple doesn't have to chase the bottom like the Winblows phones nor the Androids. When Apple is done selling all it can to approx. 850M new subscribers, then it starts to make more sense to focus more on pricing. But $299? Apple is a premium brand. Do you see Porsche facing similar doom and gloom arguments, in effect pooh-poohing Porsche because it doesn't make a $25,000 911?
In FQ3, Apple comes out with a larger phone and removes some of the seasonality of sales.
And Peter Misek is a buffoon. He's been wrong so many times I'm embarrassed for him.
|
|
|
Post by tuffett on Sept 10, 2013 14:58:38 GMT -8
I'm not an Android fan by any means, but if I wasn't on a subsidized contract like everyone else in North America, you can bet I'd look at the Nexus 4 for $249 well before I'd consider an iPhone that's 4 generations old now and still selling for $423. I'm sure the majority of the chinese market will think this way as well...would they rather have an iPhone, of course...but would they be willing to pay 3 or 4 times as much? I would have loved to see the 5C at $399, even just in emerging markets to gain some market share at the cost of margins. There are about 35,000,000 iPhones on China Mobile's unsupported network. Grey market iPhones cost in excess of $1,000 each, and on the China Mobile network only 12% get 3G service. So it would appear that your point of view has been out voted by at least 35,000,000 to 1. Not enough. Actually those 35,000,000 are outvoted by the other 700,000,000....
|
|
zebrum
Member
Posts: 215
Member is Online
|
Post by zebrum on Sept 10, 2013 14:58:56 GMT -8
|
|
Mav
Member
[img style="max-width:100%;" alt=" " src="http://www.forumup.it/images/smiles/simo.gif"]
Posts: 10,784
|
Post by Mav on Sept 10, 2013 15:00:24 GMT -8
Jony Ive is bloody magnificent in the iPhone videos. Be sure to watch 'em all. CEO capacity, absolutely no question.
|
|
Mav
Member
[img style="max-width:100%;" alt=" " src="http://www.forumup.it/images/smiles/simo.gif"]
Posts: 10,784
|
Post by Mav on Sept 10, 2013 15:02:10 GMT -8
tuffett, your inflection is amusing. Even though no one knows the exact number of China Mobile iPhones (last reported at 15M in March 2012 - where the heck is that 35M number coming from), to even suggest outvoting before there's a partnership? When CM iPhone users deliberately suffer on EDGE and paid even more ridiculous prices to secure their unlocked iPhones?
|
|
|
Post by tuffett on Sept 10, 2013 15:02:48 GMT -8
It was a tongue in cheek response to Gregg's obviously incorrect math. Don't worry about it. You're right, the 35,000,000 cannot be verified and there is obviously more than a single person who has opted not to purchase an iPhone because of price.
|
|
|
Post by aapl4kiki on Sept 10, 2013 15:10:09 GMT -8
I looked at the China prices posted above and like most of you am scratching my head on the price...finding it seemingly too high. I refuse to believe that AAPL priced the 5C based on a random game of throwing spaghetti against the wall. They MUST have researched this and we are possibly missing something here, no? The only thing that makes sense is if the carriers have been convinced to offer a subsidy model, or there is some sort of zero/low financing plan. Did CML blink?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 15:15:45 GMT -8
Why would Apple concede margin when it will sell all it can make for the next two quarters, particularly if DoCoMo and CM are both added? Apple doesn't have to chase the bottom like the Winblows phones nor the Androids. When Apple is done selling all it can to approx. 850M new subscribers, then it starts to make more sense to focus more on pricing. But $299? Apple is a premium brand. Do you see Porsche facing similar doom and gloom arguments, in effect pooh-poohing Porsche because it doesn't make a $25,000 911? In FQ3, Apple comes out with a larger phone and removes some of the seasonality of sales. And Peter Misek is a buffoon. He's been wrong so many times I'm embarrassed for him. I prefer the Nike comparison, because its a mass market premium brand (rather than a luxury brand) - no one seems to care that Nike doesn't sell sneakers under $15, despite the fact that sub $15 have huge marketshare in emerging markets and for cheapskates in developed markets. Instead of doing the trendy thing in business consulting these days and "firing" your worst customers, Apple simply chooses not to "Recruit" those customers in the first place. Another thing about the 5C - does anyone think the media would be giving such huge coverage to the iPhone 5 today if it simply was reduced in price by $100? In that respect the 5C is already a spectacular marketing success!
|
|
|
Post by aapl4kiki on Sept 10, 2013 15:17:36 GMT -8
Why would Apple concede margin when it will sell all it can make for the next two quarters, particularly if DoCoMo and CM are both added? Apple doesn't have to chase the bottom like the Winblows phones nor the Androids. When Apple is done selling all it can to approx. 850M new subscribers, then it starts to make more sense to focus more on pricing. But $299? Apple is a premium brand. Do you see Porsche facing similar doom and gloom arguments, in effect pooh-poohing Porsche because it doesn't make a $25,000 911? In FQ3, Apple comes out with a larger phone and removes some of the seasonality of sales. And Peter Misek is a buffoon. He's been wrong so many times I'm embarrassed for him. Check out the big brain on Brad! They won't be able to keep up with demand once CML is on board.
|
|
JDSoCal
Member
Aspiring oligarch
Posts: 4,185
|
Post by JDSoCal on Sept 10, 2013 15:18:03 GMT -8
There are about 35,000,000 iPhones on China Mobile's unsupported network. Grey market iPhones cost in excess of $1,000 each, and on the China Mobile network only 12% get 3G service. So it would appear that your point of view has been out voted by at least 35,000,000 to 1. Not enough. Actually those 35,000,000 are outvoted by the other 700,000,000.... Do you know there are like ONE THOUSAND mobile phone manufacturers in China, and none of them make any money in their race to the bottom? Apple and Samsung make money in China, and that's it. Nobody else makes shit. And you want Apple to be in that profitless pile?
|
|
|
Post by calvinav on Sept 10, 2013 15:20:39 GMT -8
Has anyone given a good reason for why 5C will have a whole week of pre-orders but no pre-orders for 5S? Is Apple trying to drive more traffic towards 5C?
|
|
|
Post by tuffett on Sept 10, 2013 15:22:35 GMT -8
Actually those 35,000,000 are outvoted by the other 700,000,000.... Do you know there are like ONE THOUSAND mobile phone manufacturers in China, and none of them make any money in their race to the bottom? Apple and Samsung make money in China, and that's it. Nobody else makes shit. And you want Apple to be in that profitless pile? No...I don't. Where did you get that from?! You think selling the 5C in China for something a bit less than 4500 RMB would be a profitless endeavour? My 700,000,000 comment was just a retort to the ridiculous 35,000,000:1 statement. Funny how everyone lets that one slide. I'm not advocating that Apple get an iPhone in the hands of everyone in China, just perhaps a bit more than they currently are. They could certainly do better in China and Apple would be first to admit as much. Many people here are also forgetting some of the clear benefits of increasing market share. Namely, locking in to the Apple ecosystem and providing ongoing software revenues.
|
|
Mav
Member
[img style="max-width:100%;" alt=" " src="http://www.forumup.it/images/smiles/simo.gif"]
Posts: 10,784
|
Post by Mav on Sept 10, 2013 15:22:57 GMT -8
Speaking of profit, this bit was amusing. From Bloomberg (you can find it if you want):
Bold emphasis is mine.
|
|
JDSoCal
Member
Aspiring oligarch
Posts: 4,185
|
Post by JDSoCal on Sept 10, 2013 15:27:13 GMT -8
Do you know there are like ONE THOUSAND mobile phone manufacturers in China, and none of them make any money in their race to the bottom? Apple and Samsung make money in China, and that's it. Nobody else makes shit. And you want Apple to be in that profitless pile? No...I don't. Where did you get that from?! You think selling the 5C in China for something a bit less than 4500 RMB would be a profitless endeavour? My 700,000,000 comment was just a retort to the ridiculous 35,000,000:1 statement. Funny how everyone lets that one slide. I put a friggin link to my source in my post. Is it too much to ask you to click it? And Apple's market share in China is about 5%, so with CML having ~745M subs, that works out to about 37M iPhones Apple could reasonably sell on CML, regardless of the current installed base. Gregg can defend himself, but I think CML is an enormous opportunity to extract profits from a country where most cell manufacturers earn ZERO.
|
|